99call

London..... a dead concept?

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13 hours ago, 99call said:

Ken, if the closing of the ozone hole was a by-produce of sticking a knife in the heart of unionised industrial Labour, then there is (as you've laid out) reason to highlight some of the benefits,  but I would argue it was a by-product,  and not the core motivation.  She wanted to reverse the direction of power away from workers, and into her hands. 

All that said, I'm glad that we moved away from coal, CFC's, etc  regardless the core motivations for it at the time.   For someone you seem to paint her as a wonder women futurist, with all the ideas,  what replaced these industries?  what was the grand plan of the majority of the regions?  the answer was a big fat nothing....no jobs, no ideas,  just a hinterland of depression and poverty.   Slow sarcastic hand clap for "Maggie"

Trying to come round to my original point, I wouldn't have anywhere near the degree of negative feeling towards the Tories if they in fact were,  what they purported to be, i.e pro the upward social mobility of all the citizens in the UK, through entrepreneurial endeavour, fiscal responsibility and hard work.     Thats something I don't see any real problem with.....the problem is, it's a bullshit.  In reality its protectionism and back handers for the elites, and stagnant, unregulated modern day slavery conditions for those at the bottom. 

The UK is crippled by class, nepotism etc. the Tories, (and to some extent Labour too), have treated the regions like some sort of shadow lands backwater, and not really connected the dots that it's their obsession with London, and ignorance to the potential of what these once great cities Manchester, Liverpool, etc etc. could again be......that has led to this dereliction.  They are the problem, not the regions

In recent history we don't need to look any further than the appointment of Dido Harding. At a time of national crisis, when the brightest and best need to be chosen to run the UK's Covid track and trace systems.   the Tories choose a women who's major qualifications for the role were:

  • Part time jockey/racehorse owner
  • Responsible for bankrupted Talk Talk (large telecommunication firm) 
  • Married to a Tory MP

What a farce.  They say it's all about being the brightest and best,  but when it comes down to it,  they just give there mates, college alumni, private club members,  and family relations, the job....sickening

 

 

no issue that there are plenty of problems with the conservatives and the current mob seem especially spineless. also true that i didn't focus on the issues caused by maggie T or her failings - plenty of both.

but i would see the ozone issues as completely separate from the union issues. i don't see any link there at all. 

without wanting to get into a long debate about what is now history, the unions are very very far from blameless in what went down. they held the country to ransom every chance they could. maggie took them on and won. we can argue that sent the pendulum too far but good luck finding any govt who gets it right. and if we look to democracy, remember that she had some fairly massive election wins. the british people were right behind her (a generalisation, of course). 

i think it has undoubtedly created many of today's problems but i am not certain that the problems britain would face today would be any less if maggie had failed. i suspect that had she failed, britain would be far less relevant to the world today than it is. but i also suspect not everyone will agree. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i think it has undoubtedly created many of today's problems but i am not certain that the problems britain would face today would be any less if maggie had failed. i suspect that had she failed, britain would be far less relevant to the world today than it is. but i also suspect not everyone will agree. 

I can agree that Thatcher definitely recognised the importance computer age, and that it was likely that the worker of the future would likely be sat behind a desk, and I do think it's of incredible value to London, that she was forward thinking,  I just don't understand what stopped her from replicating this investment in the North. 

Why is it the answer for the Tories is always,  let the North rot.?   I remember the 2002 commonwealth games in Manchester (under a Labour Government).  The games were a massive success,  and a huge wave of regeneration followed in the positive afterglow and international spotlight of the event.   The reaction from London was almost shock that one of its second cities could return such a resounding success.    It created a huge legacy for the city, and a once patchwork skyline flooded with investment and business. One of the victories of the games was the building of the Velodrome. It went on to act as a national cycling centre of excellence for the likes of Geraint Thomas, Victoria Pendleton, Chris Hoy, Bradley Wiggins,  a list of names that went on the return a boat load of gold medals in successive Olympic games. It just goes to show that local investment can equal national riches.

I guess thats my core point of bewilderment with the Tories, if they were indeed what they purport to be, the inequality of the country should be a painful embarrassment for them. London can quite happily tick along on autopilot,  they should want to 'level up' the country,  but it's just an out and out lie.    We have seen very recently in Manchester the proof in that pudding, when regional areas are desperate to protect their business, they are sterotyped like some how they are trying to scam a benefits system, it's a disgrace. 

 

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21 hours ago, 99call said:

The way the UK operates is like some sorry Dickensian tale, cities paying their taxes into central government, then have to beg for public investment in return.  The reaction from Westminster and London is, we'll keep you on some sort of subsistence allowance. 

Its simply not true however, London and the south east subsidise the rest of the country. They literally pay you more than you put into the pot. Without London money you would be further down the hole than you realise really.

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2 hours ago, Shaunster said:

Its simply not true however, London and the south east subsidise the rest of the country. They literally pay you more than you put into the pot. Without London money you would be further down the hole than you realise really.

But it's absolutely ridiculous not to see the connection between a regions ability to generate cash, and Westminster not providing the necessary investment and infrastructure.  If you leave regions to rot, it's not surprising if they cannot generate the same economic results.   

Currently you have a pathetic situation whereby the regions are almost seen as laughable backwaters that are not able support themselves.  I think that old adage of give a man a fish, or give a man a means to catch is own fish, really apply here. 

Currently the feeling in the North, is we would happily self govern/fund,  if we were able to control aspects such as HS3.   If we had railways that weren't from the 1950's etc. 

The North is a sleeping giant, but for some reason Westminster doesn't want it to gather the power and independence it could achieve.  

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So what you’re saying is a bunch of London fatcats can’t figure out how to serve the needs of people who live further afield? Then boy, have I got a life hack for you! 
 

For it to work, you will need the services of the French Navy though.....

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Just saw this on the news today: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-54694403. Vastly different opinions from two Labour mayors. 

But in general, I think that what you describe is a spiral in both ways. How do you prove your worth if you aren't given the chance to? On the other hand, why would you give a chance to someone to prove themselves when (in your eyes) they've never done anything to earn it? 

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This is an interesting discussion....as an American in the Midwest (Kansas City metro), I get tired of the disdain from our cultural betters on the coasts about “fly over” country.   I like to visit big cities but always want to be back home in open spaces and plenty of grass and trees.


I was a student in Birmingham back in the early ‘90s and was fortunate to see a lot of England both north and south, and a little of Scotland.  Still hope to get to Wales and N Ireland some day.  Great country and friend of freedom in the English-speaking world.  Wish we had a Lady Thatcher in my country today...
 

I was in London last Christmas and my (selfish, tourist) complaint was with the cost of indulging in our favorite hobby there...ouch.  Makes one prefer our trusted vendor and host :)


 

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6 hours ago, Meklown said:

Just saw this on the news today: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-54694403. Vastly different opinions from two Labour mayors. 

But in general, I think that what you describe is a spiral in both ways. How do you prove your worth if you aren't given the chance to? On the other hand, why would you give a chance to someone to prove themselves when (in your eyes) they've never done anything to earn it? 

A couple of things here.  There is different things going on in different areas, and that was the point of Andy Burnhams stance.    The regions were being treated with some sort of generic order, and it was never based on local understanding. Also I think it's always slightly flawed to weigh someones opinion when they've just lost their brother, you could argue that the focus of his current opinion is more and less valid in the same breath. 

On you later point of "earning it".   This is a huge issue in the UK.  The concept of class, trust, power and investment.   The Tories often paint a picture of those in poverty as aimless, scroungers, destined for dereliction, like they are genetically magnetised to failure.    The truth is, the real scroungers are Boris, his family and his class. There will obviously be exceptions, but the platform and protections given to these utterly non-elite....elites, is jaw dropping.    Boris's hair and his demeanour, like a dishevelled tramp who's found a suit in dumpster..  its like two fingers up to those who's ability and performance actually dictate their fate and fortune.    He is part of class, whereby his failures are applauded and rewarded.    

In conclusion, it should never be in the hands of the blue blood classes, to judge or ascertain who is worthy of reward....if you give them that power, they do what they always do...give it to themselves,  via the Cayman Islands. 

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17 minutes ago, 99call said:

In conclusion, it should never be in the hands of the blue blood classes, to judge or ascertain who is worthy of reward

If not them, then who? They won the election - this is what democracy means, for better or for worse. If enough people agree with your opinion, they will go out in the next election and vote these guys out. If you don't trust your own democracy, or you don't trust the voters to vote the "correct" leaders in, that would mean you think that the socialist / dictatorship model of governance is better?

Well, like I said earlier, I'm not a fan of politicians. Left, right, red, blue - how many of them actually care about anything more than their Cayman accounts? 

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53 minutes ago, 99call said:

The truth is, the real scroungers are Boris, his family and his class. There will obviously be exceptions, but the platform and protections given to these utterly non-elite....elites, is jaw dropping.    Boris's hair and his demeanour, like a dishevelled tramp who's found a suit in dumpster..  its like two fingers up to those who's ability and performance actually dictate their fate and fortune.    He is part of class, whereby his failures are applauded and rewarded.    

In conclusion, it should never be in the hands of the blue blood classes, to judge or ascertain who is worthy of reward....if you give them that power, they do what they always do...give it to themselves,  via the Cayman Islands. 

all sides of politics have their appalling and less appalling reps. not arguing what you say if all power is in the hands of the "blue bloods". but if all power is in the hands of the other end of the spectrum, you end up with just as big a mess. a different mess perhaps but a mess nonetheless. was talking to mates the other day about the millions that their companies have been forced to pay to corrupt unions (not suggesting all unionists are corrupt, of course). if they complained or went to the authorities, their businesses would be destroyed. utterly disgraceful (no more or less disgraceful or corrupt than you'll find in certain of the corporate classes). 

find me the ideal system. or at least a really good one. democracy, when practiced decently, is the best we have at the moment. the problem is that we have absolute grubs in positions of power from both sides. 

by the way, if boris was perfectly dressed in the squillion dollar suit with the immaculate coiffure, would that make you happy? i suspect not. 

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1 minute ago, Ken Gargett said:

by the way, if boris was perfectly dressed in the squillion dollar suit with the immaculate coiffure, would that make you happy? i suspect not. 

I agree with you Ken that politicians on all sides are rarely anything other than disappointing.  For me it comes down to a basic degree of decency and humanity.  My politics are centre left, and I completely accept that for someone of a different political leaning,  the idea of decency and humanity, is both forged in a different manner, and mean slightly different things. 

With regards to sartorial critique of Boris, it goes the same for Dominic Cummings, my comment is not to do with class. rather that there is a very well established trend with people who think they are so talented that the pressure of appearances (that apply to everyone else)  do not apply to them.  i.e  they are so gifted, whomever should have the pleasure of there company or labour, should be happy to have it, even if they were wearing nothing but a bin bag. I would be happy if everyone in Westminster was smart casual

It's also been observed from Boris's ex-employee's etc,  that he'll ruffle his own hair, and pull out his collar, before meeting the press.   He seems to be playing a poorly thought out game of 3D chess, where he want's people to purposefully under-estimate him, in some covert conviction he's a genius.   The sad fact is, that he actually is worse at his job, than his dishevelled, 'slept in a bush chic' actually projects him to be.    For heavens sake, this is a man who will advertise himself, as "not a details man". 

Again Ken, however the likes of Corbyn were also a horror, there are train crashes everywhere.   Keir Starmer however is providing me with some degree of hope and enthusiasm

his-dress-sense-more-silicon-valley-than-westminster.jpg

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50 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

find me the ideal system. or at least a really good one. democracy, when practiced decently, is the best we have at the moment. the problem is that we have absolute grubs in positions of power from both sides.

Having spent time in New Zealand, I know it's never as simple as outward appearances, but Jacina Ardern seems to be having a good crack at, affective rule built on genuinely trying to balance the varying needs of a country.    I saw her victory speech the other day, and I think it's always a good sign, when someones first thought is with the people that didn't vote for you, and how you can serve their needs also, and bring them on board. 

I'm sure there are problems with her party that don't reach these shores,   but I looks pretty good from where I'm standing. 

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Born and raised on the border in the Home Counties, I love London, I have never tired of having it on my doorstep I can not imagine I ever will.

It is a city of extreme's where I have found home in many subculture's at different point's of my life and I still move and am welcomed into any I wish to stick my neck into.

I feel I have lived many different lifetime's in London, I have great memories and I live to make many more.

 

 

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12 hours ago, 99call said:

But I looks pretty good from where I'm standing. 

......a little like those communes of peace and love.

They never end well  ;)

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1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

......a little like those communes of peace and love.

They never end well  ;)

I don't necessarily go in for the hyper aware political correctness malarky, but as least she seems able to provide:

A, Clear communication

B, Organised affective policy implementation. 

Compared to how the majority of countries around the world, she's making governance look like a sweet science. 

 

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9 minutes ago, 99call said:

I don't necessarily go in for the hyper aware political correctness malarky, but as least she seems able to provide:

A, Clear communication

B, Organised affective policy implementation. 

Compared to how the majority of countries around the world, she's making governance look like a sweet science. 

 

Excellent communicator no doubt.  Policy Implementation (CV19) not so difficult if it largely entails bolting the doors. 

Challenges of a Nordic services dream is Nordic taxation and the fewer people sharing the load as the "lifters"  race across the Tasman. 

second term will be interesting. 

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