Cuba Back On List Of State Sponsors of Terrorism

[Nino]

2 hours ago, Ryan said:

What it does, is put Cuba back on the radar of every bank and credit card provider in the world. At least any that have dealings with the US, which is most, if not all.

So, while any of us may or may not agree with the decision. It is not good for anyone who likes to use credit cards to buy Cuban cigars. How much of a difference it will actually make, too early to tell.

Exactly - and that might affect us outside the US as well, like in credit cards, phone top-ups, money transfers or airline connections ..

As I posted earlier on another thread :

"Mr. LeoGrande said the designation may impede legal financial transactions involving American financial institutions, like a United States airlines paying the Cuban government for landing fees, as banks grow more leery of additional supervision of such exchanges from Washington.

Banking transactions through third countries could also be affected. During Mr. Trump’s term, European banks have become increasingly reluctant to issue payments to Cuban state enterprises. The island’s terrorism designation could further reduce risk appetite."

[SCgarman]

3 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

The reason the embargo isn’t going anywhere has little to do with party breakdown in Congress. The reason is that Cuban Americans support it, and they are swing voters in the biggest swing state. Very simple. 

This is also fact. Cuban-Americans in south Florida carry a BIG voice. Even the younger generation who are voting now.

[cigcars]

         *I thought after the Castro's were gone the U.S. was supposed to be open to "talks" or possible friendliness toward Cuba. What happened?  Is the leader of Cuba still somebody who our government "doesn't like"? 

[Nino]

28 minutes ago, cigcars said:

         *I thought after the Castro's were gone the U.S. was supposed to be open to "talks" or possible friendliness toward Cuba. What happened?  Is the leader of Cuba still somebody who our government "doesn't like"? 

The "Castros" are not gone ... yet.

The US was very much open to talks and a lot of friendliness towards Cuba.

What happened is Cuba screwed it up royally and refused the extended Obama hand in favour of possible more extension by Hillary betting on the wrong horse.

Nope, it's your gvmt that the "leader of Cuba" doesn't like.

Cuba had a great opportunity when Obama visited and extended a hand but it was wasted, Fidel personally attacked and insulted Obama and his policies, Raul put his money on Hillary and now it's too late and the world's attention is no longer on Cuba.

[helix]

Yep truly an Island all alone and forgotten , as the world has its own problems .  Desperate situation the good folks of Cuban find themselves in once again because of the Castro regime.

[MrBirdman]

As long as Cuban-Americans support an embargo, it’s highly unlikely the embargo will be lifted, short of a successful revolution by a pro-US faction (hopefully a peaceful one). 

Designating them state-sponsors of terrorism has the same motivations - it’s a reward for Cuban-Americans who turned out big for Trump and the GOP in 2020 and want this policy. It isn’t justified on the merits - as bad a Cuba is to its own citizens, it doesn’t support terrorism in any meaningful sense of which I know. 

[El Presidente]

The embargo will go down as one of the most incompetent  examples of  foreign policy in history. 

If you took Newtons third law as a social science....it applies well 

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction

The tighter you turn the screw, the deeper a hole you are making for yourself.  The tighter the embargo, the more the Cuban government become entrenched. 

Now Obama also had it wrong. Open up with no tangible trade-offs. 

A US led (and conditional) "belt and road" type initiative for it's region (not just Cuba) tying in infrastructure funding, trade, banking, human rights etal would open up large opportunities for US companies and put the fear of God into dictatorships whose populations openly begin to ask "why aren't we part of this.....how do we become part of this?"

 

[Ken Gargett]

19 hours ago, dgixxer252525 said:

Cuba's government, not the USA, is responsible for the embargo. Even now the USA sends goods to Cuba, only to have those goods misused by the government so that they can keep the same narrative going. I have family on the island from Aguacate, Guida de Melena, San Antonio de los Banos, and Havana...they are all struggling, the know the truth about the embargo, they all support it because they HATE the Castro's, they HATE Che, they HATE Diaz-Canel, and they LOVE the USA....all of them are dying to get off of that island like my grandparents/parents did...

that is just nonsense. 

i know that the cuban govt has taken advantage of it and would probably be terrified that it gets lifted but they did not impose it and maintain it for some six decades. the only one that can lift it is the US govt. they are responsible. 

i don't disagree at all with what you say about what people think about the castros etc. i was there when obama had made serious moves and the adoration for him was like nothing i've seen - if god himself had walked into the biggest happyclapper church you could imagine, it would not have been as intense.

but in the end, it comes down to the US. 

[MrBirdman]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

in the end, it comes down to the US

I agree. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, the post-Cold War political calculus here is driven foremost by the Cuban people’s American brethren. They have substantial political clout among both parties. And they want the embargo. They want Trump’s harsher policies.

I’m not sure I really understand why - I mean, obviously, I know how they feel about the regime and completely understand it. That said, their animus made more sense (to a non-Cuban American) when the Castros, who persecuted many of them or their parents, were still in charge. In fact the common thinking here used to be that Cuban exiles’ support for the embargo would diminish once Castro died. That hasn’t happened. 

I can’t believe the community wants to punish the people of Cuba, so they must believe harsher policies will instigate regime change. But this has been going on for decades to no avail, and now the regime looks poised to survive the COVID crunch on top of the Trump administration’s policies. The “stick” clearly isn’t working. And I’m confused as to why the Cuban-American community is so averse to any approach that involves carrots. If they aren’t, they need to organize and advocate for them - nobody else here is going to fight for the Cuban people without them. Because there’s no political juice in Cuba unless it comes with the support of their domestic community.

[dgixxer252525]

Yea what do I know...I'm only a Cuban with family there, friends there, and am surrounded by Cubans and Cuban Americans literally every day....

[El Presidente]

9 minutes ago, dgixxer252525 said:

Yea what do I know...I'm only a Cuban with family there, friends there, and am surrounded by Cubans and Cuban Americans literally every day....

I know we want the same outcome for your friends and family. Many of us have friends and families in Cuba. 

I have plenty of Cuban friends who left for a better life. I have plenty who remain there and refuse to leave because they believe in change and they love their country. 

You and I disagree solely on the methodology to achieve change. 

[dgixxer252525]

5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I know we want the same outcome for your friends and family. Many of us have friends and families in Cuba. 

I have plenty of Cuban friends who left for a better life. I have plenty who remain there and refuse to leave because they believe in change and they love their country. 

You and I disagree solely on the methodology to achieve change. 

I agree with all of that...my argument is that an overwhelming majority of Cubans and Cuban Americans feel just like I do in regards to methodology. Anyone on the island that refuses to leave, is living a MUCH better life than my family and friends...

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, dgixxer252525 said:

I agree with all of that...my argument is that an overwhelming majority of Cubans and Cuban Americans feel just like I do in regards to methodology. Anyone on the island that refuses to leave, is living a MUCH better life than my family and friends...

But when that methodology has not made any positive impact after 50 odd years, do you keep going on?

As the saying goes, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results". 

 

[dgixxer252525]

5 hours ago, Fuzz said:

But when that methodology has not made any positive impact after 50 odd years, do you keep going on?

As the saying goes, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results". 

 

Maybe change up some things...no more remesas from the USA for one...no more mules leaving from USA taking hundreds of pounds of goods(not for family, but to sell on black market for 200% mark up)...the people in Cuba have to change Cuba like the Movimiento San Isidro is trying to do. I know we all want the same thing, but with all due respect, some of you guys are so far removed from the situation that you don't see the things that we deal with on a daily basis. 

[Nino]

22 hours ago, El Presidente said:

The embargo will go down as one of the most incompetent  examples of  foreign policy in history. 

If you took Newtons third law as a social science....it applies well 

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction

 

@El Presidente - I know we both disagree on this particular issue, the "embargo", but here is my contrarian take : Newtons law applies to both sides of the Florida straits.

Action : Seizure/confiscation of companies, private property, fields, factories, human right abuses.
Remember it was Che ( the terrorist Che, not the holy T-Shirt "Saint Che" so revered by the ignoramus ) who wanted to press the nuclear button, not the Soviets when a "Quarantine" was announced by JFK.

See this video - interesting at 10:15 mins - : 

The "embargo" is a common misunderstanding - which is used by the Cuban gvmt as a great and poor excuse for all and any failures and by many outside of Cuba who don't know better.

There is no embargo, Cuba is free to trade with all countries and in fact receives ca. 70% of its food from the USA, paid cash in advance.

Here some older figures that haven't changed significantly :

Although economic sanctions are in place, in 2012, the United States was Cuba’s primary supplier of food and agricultural products, and humanitarian goods, a significant supplier of medicines and medical products, and Cuba’s seventh overall largest trading partner in goods.

Many countries ( or rather most ) prefer not to deal with Cuba as it has never paid its debt, does not allow transfer of currency for foreign companies and even the Chinese Embassy in HAV warns its companies of dealing with Cuba.

Agree with you on the "US Belt & Road" initiative for the Americas.

22 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

but in the end, it comes down to the US. 

That is a very paternalistic view and absolves Cuba of any responsability.

20 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

I’m not sure I really understand why - I mean, obviously, I know how they feel about the regime and completely understand it. That said, their animus made more sense (to a non-Cuban American) when the Castros, who persecuted many of them or their parents, were still in charge. In fact the common thinking here used to be that Cuban exiles’ support for the embargo would diminish once Castro died. That hasn’t happened. 

 

Wrong.

Castro is still in charge. First name Raul. Title : Chairman of the only party in Cuba, the CCP. As such he is in overall charge and determines the President and the policy.

Another Castro, his ex-son in law is in charge of the largest military-commercial enterprise running 75% of Cuba's economy. Google GAESA.

https://havanatimes.org/features/cubas-largest-company-the-revolutionary-armed-forces/

Cuba is neither socialist nor communist as it claims to be, just a corrupt cleptocracy run by the military.

15 hours ago, Fuzz said:

But when that methodology has not made any positive impact after 50 odd years, do you keep going on?

As the saying goes, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results". 

 

Agreed @Fuzz - but I see the same insanity in Cuba after 62 years of "revolution".

There is an "internal/domestic embargo" in Cuba however imposed by the gvmt - which is why the economy, the private sector, the agriculture, the creation of jobs etc, etc, doesn't work.

[El Presidente]

34 minutes ago, nino said:

@El Presidente - I know we both disagree on this particular issue, the "embargo", but here is my contrarian take : Newtons law applies to both sides of the Florida straits.

 

Fully agree !

The objective is regime change for the betterment of all Cubans.  My point is that only the dumbest of fishermen doesn't change baits after 50 years of catching nothing.  

[MrBirdman]

4 hours ago, nino said:

Wrong

I was referring to Fidel Castro, who is dead the last I checked. What’s more, you’re missing the point - the anger at the Castro’s themselves doesn’t change the reality that the embargo hasn’t worked. It hasn’t. And arguing that it should nevertheless still be applied because people with the last name “Castro” are still in charge is ludicrous.

And in any case the point of my post has nothing to do with Castro - it’s simply to point out the the biggest impediment to the embargo ending are the feelings and wishes of Cuban Americans. Whether it’s really a majority of them is another question - I don’t pretend to know, but the political organizations claiming to represent them are funded by right-wing groups committed to the embargo. Which again gets back to my original point - the embargo won’t end until Cuban-Americans organize to pressure for it’s abolition. 

[Nino]

1 hour ago, MrBirdman said:

I was referring to Fidel Castro, who is dead the last I checked. What’s more, you’re missing the point - the anger at the Castro’s themselves doesn’t change the reality that the embargo hasn’t worked. It hasn’t. And arguing that it should nevertheless still be applied because people with the last name “Castro” are still in charge is ludicrous.

And in any case the point of my post has nothing to do with Castro - it’s simply to point out the the biggest impediment to the embargo ending are the feelings and wishes of Cuban Americans. Whether it’s really a majority of them is another question - I don’t pretend to know, but the political organizations claiming to represent them are funded by right-wing groups committed to the embargo. Which again gets back to my original point - the embargo won’t end until Cuban-Americans organize to pressure for it’s abolition. 

No problem, I can confirm Fidel is dead, I was there when it happened and suffered through a week of mourning before flying back.

But the point is : this is NOT about Fidel, this is about the corrupt system of Castrismo that is still alive and kicking in Cuba and forced upon the people. About the failure of that system and about changing it. If it was up to me ( and all rational people ) it would be done by elections but that is not a choice Cubans have.

Again, I see no "embargo" and I agree that the political clout of the Florida Cubans will decide this question but so far last November more Cuban-Americans and others like Venezuelan-Americans voted against ending the measures against these regimes.
They seem to have serious grievances that should be taken seriously,  after all it's their past experiences and future hopes that count.
 

[MrBirdman]

35 minutes ago, nino said:

They seem to have serious grievances that should be taken seriously,  after all it's their past experiences and future hopes that count.

No question, and I agree their sentiments matter a great deal. But as @Elpresidente said, we’ve respected those wishes for decades and not reeled in any results beyond added hardship for the Cuban people. The embargo costs all Americans money, both in enforcement and lost opportunities. 

And what frustrates me is that there seems to be no push from anywhere for alternatives or a staged relaxing of sanctions. At the end of the day, what will it take for sentiments to change? An armed revolution? Is there no middle ground?

 

[Ken Gargett]

11 hours ago, nino said:

 

That is a very paternalistic view and absolves Cuba of any responsability.

 

nino, if you read what i wrote you would see i most certainly did not do that. but in the end, the embargo comes down to the US govt. they imposed it, they maintain it and they can lift it. 

it is naive in the extreme to expect the cuban govt to turn around and do everything the states might want so the embargo goes. it might be in the people's interests but those with power seldom give it up so easily. and they have shown no sign of doing so in fifty plus years. why anyone would think that this mess would suddenly start working when it has been an abysmal failure for decades is beyond me. 

[Bijan]

11 hours ago, nino said:

Although economic sanctions are in place, in 2012, the United States was Cuba’s primary supplier of food and agricultural products, and humanitarian goods, a significant supplier of medicines and medical products, and Cuba’s seventh overall largest trading partner in goods.

7th largest trading partner? They would probably be the biggest without the embargo. So I wouldn't say:

11 hours ago, nino said:

There is no embargo

It's definitely not like the sanctions against Iran that put limits on what other third party countries can buy/sell of course.

Here's the breakdown of what Cuba imports from the US:

 https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/import/cub/usa/show/2018/

Vs their total imports:

https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/import/cub/all/show/2018/

Edit: to make a more stark contrast, here's Cuba's exports to the US:

https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/cub/usa/show/2018/

Vs their total exports:

https://oec.world/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/cub/all/show/2018/

[dgixxer252525]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

nino, if you read what i wrote you would see i most certainly did not do that. but in the end, the embargo comes down to the US govt. they imposed it, they maintain it and they can lift it. 

it is naive in the extreme to expect the cuban govt to turn around and do everything the states might want so the embargo goes. it might be in the people's interests but those with power seldom give it up so easily. and they have shown no sign of doing so in fifty plus years. why anyone would think that this mess would suddenly start working when it has been an abysmal failure for decades is beyond me. 

You put it best...and I mean this with 100% respect...it IS in fact beyond you...that's not a knock on you Ken, its just the way it is. 

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, dgixxer252525 said:

You put it best...and I mean this with 100% respect...it IS in fact beyond you...that's not a knock on you Ken, its just the way it is. 

fair point. no offence and i think i know what you mean. 

but there is also dangers in being too close or very much locked into on one side or other. i would add that a great many of the cubans i have met (and these would be in cuba - i know very few from outside) desperately want it removed. asap. and have for the 20 years i have known them. 

given i suspect that we (and i mean most of us, not just you and me) agree that the people are unlikely to rise in revolution, and fat chance of either side of politics in the states joining one, the best chance i can see is dumping this embargo which i think most of us agree helps keep the cuban govt in place. this would open the people much more to the outside world and its influences. eventually the weight of that would become extremely difficult for the cuban govt to hold back. and once small concessions and changes come in, who knows what can happen.

as rob says, same bait for 50 years and it has not worked. might be time to look at a different approach. and the only entity that can remove the embargo is the US govt. which was my original point. 

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

It is naive in the extreme to expect the cuban govt to turn around and do everything the states might want so the embargo goes. it might be in the people's interests but those with power seldom give it up so easily. and they have shown no sign of doing so in fifty plus years. why anyone would think that this mess would suddenly start working when it has been an abysmal failure for decades is beyond me. 

It is likely as naive to think the US would lift the embargo unilaterally. Just think of the whole wide complex of seizures and expropriations (not telling news to you as the law-person that you are). One of the main drivers still today for the enduring opposition seen from exile Cubans. A solution would have to be found first, and that won’t be easy negotiations... those far and few tentative approaches that were being discussed during the Obama admin were without any avail.

9 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

I was referring to Fidel Castro, who is dead the last I checked. What’s more, you’re missing the point - the anger at the Castro’s themselves doesn’t change the reality that the embargo hasn’t worked. It hasn’t. And arguing that it should nevertheless still be applied because people with the last name “Castro” are still in charge is ludicrous.

To think or speak of Raul Castro (or any member of the clan) as just anyone “with the last name Castro” - and thinking the Castro regime had ended with the passing of Fidel, is entirely missing realities.

14 hours ago, nino said:

Cuba is neither socialist nor communist as it claims to be, just a corrupt cleptocracy run by the military.

... in a nutshell.

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, Fugu said:

It is likely as naive to think the US would lift the embargo unilaterally. Just think of the whole wide complex of seizures and expropriations (not telling news to you as the law-person that you are). One of the main drivers still today for the enduring opposition seen from exile Cubans. A solution would have to be found first, and that won’t be easy negotiations... those far and few tentative approaches that were being discussed during the Obama admin were without any avail.

absolutely. won't be easy. it would need extensive negotiations and agreements. it would be nice to think otherwise and in one sense, given it was unilaterally imposed, it should simply be lifted. but fat chance. given it will take time, we'll see how serious the new administration is because if they do not start something quickly, it won't be happening first term. and who knows after that.