13 Digit Warranty Seal Numbers?


Chibearsv

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Has anyone encountered 13 digit numbers on Warranty Seals that are legitimate?  (Five zeros - space - 8 digits)  The packaging and the look and smell of the cigars give no sign that they aren't legit.  When I questioned the supplier on the warranty seal, they told me I had nothing to worry about and instructed me to go to Habanos Verify, click manual entry, click option 4 for 12 digits, enter all 13 digits and submit.  I did all that and the result verifies the cigars I purchased.  I tried it with one less leading zero and I got a different result and I tried leaving off the last digit and got no result; both of those events lead me to believe that the system is ok with 13 digits.  Seems fishy to me that I've got to enter 13 digits into a system that asks for 12 in order to get the result I expect.  Just curious if anyone has had a similar experience with either positive or negative results.

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On 1/13/2021 at 10:00 AM, Chibearsv said:

Seems fishy to me that I've got to enter 13 digits into a system that asks for 12 in order to get the result I expect.  Just curious if anyone has had a similar experience with either positive or negative results.

New security to prevent counterfeiting. Counterfeiters, upon seeing the 12 digit requirement on the website, make all their fake seals with 12 digits. When you enter the fake number, instant error! But when you enter 13 digits in a 12 digit field? Success!! :P

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I am always paranoid about such things. Makes me wonder if there is some algorithm to assign serial numbers to cigars on the verification site and the counterfeiters have cracked it.

What is the date code (month/year) on the cigars?

 

I've done a quick look through some serial numbers (not all my boxes... maybe some day).

I have serial numbers from April 2011 to July 2020.

What I found was that in April 2011 they were already 12 digits, but 5 leading zeros and 7 other digits: 000007ABCDEF (where ABCDEF are digits from 0-9)

by June 2013 they were still 12 digits, but by now 4 leading zeros and 8 other digits. 000018ABCDEF

until Jul 2020 they are still 12 digits, still 4 leading zeros and still 8 other digits. 000048ABCDEF

They seem to increase over time as seen above, but sometimes they decrease between consecutive months (for example I have codes MAR 19 (000045ABCDEF) > MAY 19 (000044ABCDEF) > ABR 19 (000043ABCDEF).

I have not analyzed all the way back but at least in 2019 and 2020 serial numbers seem to be roughly sequential per master case (I have 52 RyJ MF x25, followed by 100 HdM Du Maire in one place, and then 18 esplendidos in a row elsewhere, though I think esplendidos should be 21 to the mastercase).

This did not seem to hold for the April 2011 serials. I haven't tested anything in between. I managed to get one IP address blocked by the Habanos verification site, and didn't want to push my luck with my second IP :)

I didn't actually see the April 2011 serial numbers so don't know the format, but from June 2013 on, the format was always 12 digits no spaces, 4 leading zeros.

All this to say that if your date is between June 2013 and July 2020 and you don't have the 12 digits no spaces, 4 leading zeros format, I might be suspicious. Similarly if the 8 digits don't start between 18ABCDEF and 48ABCDEF, I would be suspicious.

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The cigars I’m referring to are older and I’m now convinced are not legit. @Fuzz’s sarcasm aside. What he said made sense but I was hoping that I had an example of Cuba being Cuba. Just like betting horses, hope can be expensive sometimes. Now I’ll be testing the customer service to see if they’ll take em back. The source has always been good for that but these were a lot pricier than usual stock. 

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21 minutes ago, Chibearsv said:

The cigars I’m referring to are older and I’m now convinced are not legit. @Fuzz’s sarcasm aside. What he said made sense but I was hoping that I had an example of Cuba being Cuba. Just like betting horses, hope can be expensive sometimes. Now I’ll be testing the customer service to see if they’ll take em back. The source has always been good for that but these were a lot pricier than usual stock. 

Again depends how old. My 2001-2007 boxes do not have barcodes for example (serial number is two letters followed by six digits). I believe barcodes were introduced in 2009 and fully adopted by 2011.

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3 hours ago, Bijan said:

Again depends how old. My 2001-2007 boxes do not have barcodes for example (serial number is two letters followed by six digits). I believe barcodes were introduced in 2009 and fully adopted by 2011.

These were from 2009 with the barcodes scratched off.  I haven't seen the number sequence of 5 digits to the left followed by 8 digits to the right (13 total) anywhere else and it really doesn't make sense that a legitimate seal from 2009 would need 13 digits since the 12 digit numbers won't be exhausted for decades.  If my supplier wants to argue the point with me, I'm happy to hear their reasonable explanation but I'm guessing there won't be one.  We'll see and I'll report back.

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On 1/17/2021 at 2:31 PM, Chibearsv said:

I haven't seen the number sequence of 5 digits to the left followed by 8 digits to the right (13 total) anywhere else and it really doesn't make sense that a legitimate seal from 2009 would need 13 digits since the 12 digit numbers won't be exhausted for decades.

Before the current 12 digits with no spaces, I believe there were 3 other formats with:

A 1 space 5 space 7

B 6 space 6

and

C 1 space 5 space 7

but the ones with 1 space, 5 space 7 wouldn't require the first digit at the start before the space to be entered for verification.

Will be interesting to see what the supplier says.

 

On 1/17/2021 at 2:31 PM, Chibearsv said:

These were from 2009 with the barcodes scratched off.

Wait only the barcode scratched off? Or the barcode and the numbers scratched off? And if the numbers too are you reading the micro-printed numbers? (They weren't added until 2011). Also 2009 warranty seal should be square without bevelled/rounded corners.

https://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/packaging/information#Union_and_Warranty_Seals

Also does option 1 or 3 on the verification site with last 12 digits entered work?

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5 hours ago, Bijan said:

Wait only the barcode scratched off? Or the barcode and the numbers scratched off? And if the numbers too are you reading the micro-printed numbers? (They weren't added until 2011). Also 2009 warranty seal should be square without bevelled/rounded corners.

https://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/packaging/information#Union_and_Warranty_Seals

Also does option 1 or 3 on the verification site with last 12 digits entered work?

Only the barcode scratched off - no micro printing at all

Warranty seal is rectangular, corners ARE beveled.  It also doesn't feel like paper.  It's some kind of synthetic, but I don't want to mess with it too much since I want to be able to return these.

Only option 4 gives a result.  I had all these suspicions as soon as I opened the box and asked the supplier why I couldn't verify the warranty seal numbers; they gave me instructions to use option 4 and enter the full number which does yield the expected result.  That's when I posted this topic, to see if anyone would buy that story. 

I've been reading about the history of warranty seals on cubancigarwebsite.com for about a week now.  I've used it as a reference before but I've been giving it a deep dive.  I find process change fascinating, just the nerd in me I guess.

Thanks for the assistance and interest.

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19 hours ago, Chibearsv said:

It also doesn't feel like paper.  It's some kind of synthetic, but I don't want to mess with it too much since I want to be able to return these.

This agrees with CCW for 2009 and later seals (best not to remove):

"The seals are printed on a synthetic paper that is destroyed on removal."

19 hours ago, Chibearsv said:

no micro printing at all

Seems micro-printing came in, in late 2011:

"Starting in late 2011, the main seal was revised to feature the serial number micro-printed at various locations on the design."

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Ok, here's the photos of the labels and the explanation from the supplier.  I'll post full photos later today and it will become obvious why I've been hoping these are legit.  I'm confident that I'll get my money back but is there any truth here?

Hi Scott -

 As you know, we have a 100% satisfaction guarantee policy so you could certainly return the boxes for a full refund.

 The green warranty seals underwent multiple changes over the years, that’s one of the reasons you have 4 options to choose from when performing the authenticity check on Habanos.com. The seal that you received is one of the originals and this format existed very briefly. It works if you select format #2. 

IMG_0891.JPEG.992e3cc46fa73b91d408c26afae8a250.JPEG 

 

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7 hours ago, Chibearsv said:

Ok, here's the photos of the labels and the explanation from the supplier.  I'll post full photos later today and it will become obvious why I've been hoping these are legit.  I'm confident that I'll get my money back but is there any truth here?

I verified that number through the website I got:

COHIBA COHIBA GRAN RESERVA 2009 SPB-S-n-n-n-15

Which is I guess the 2003-2009 Cohiba Siglo VI Gran Reserva Cosecha?

There are 5 that have been sold on bond roberts with barcode serial number and serial number/5000.

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/1634

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/2738

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/2876

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/3380

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/3467

00000 3878441 2527/5000

00000 3876352 4335/5000

00000 3883143 2438/5000

00000 3876342 4149/5000

00000 3880931 0452/5000

And the last one has a picture of the barcode, and it is 5 space 7 format.

As an interesting side note, I don't think any of these serial numbers verify on the verification site.

Based on the above I would probably ask for my money back. If you paid less than about $8,000 I would say the deal was too good to be true. If you paid more that's a lot of money to worry about authenticity.

Screen Shot 2021-01-19 at 10.58.25 AM.png

 

Additionally only the serial numbers from the first box you posted to the second box you posted are valid.

00000 38719325

00000 38719332

That is a total of 8 boxes. Codes on either side of those are invalid (9324, 9333). Just another data point to consider.

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2 hours ago, Bijan said:

Based on the above I would probably ask for my money back. If you paid less than about $8,000 I would say the deal was too good to be true. If you paid more that's a lot of money to worry about authenticity.

It's so odd to me that a supplier is upright enough to make the refund but has blinders on to the obvious red flags here.  Either they don't really want to know or they bought a story from someone else I guess. 

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I just received a box of OCT 09 cigars and the barcode serial number is 000007ABCDEF, and in format 4 (12 digits no spaces). I believe barcodes started in March 2009. And the Cohiba Gran Reserva on bond robert are 00000 3ABCDEF, in format 2 (5 space 7). I wonder if format 1 is before that period and range and format 3 is between that and my box. Would be interesting to find format 1 and format 3 serial numbers and test this theory.

I see 3 scenarios for these boxes with 5 space 8. Either:

1) they are unicorns where 8 boxes or some small number of boxes were in this format where all the rest of the 5000 Cohiba Gran Reservas were in the 5 space 7 format.

2) Someone dumped the habanos verification database noticed this small anomaly possibly due to a typo back in the day and took advantage in making these barcode serials to match and verify.

3) The fakers have a man on the inside who added some 13 digit serials to the database so that the serials would verify.

If it's case number 1 they could be genuine, but I doubt this happened. As you say why add an extra digit in 2009 when we're about halfway through the numbers in 2021 now.

If it's case number 2 you are lucky, as they could just as easily have used an old discarded empty box of Cohiba Gran Reserva with the original barcode and you'd have no way of knowing they had been refilled.

If it's case number 3 that's a bit scary...

In any case probably impossible to tell from the cigars themselves as even if they're fake they're most likely genuine Siglo VI cigars with Gran Reserva bands added on. Always a possibility when special limited release cigars match an actually existing vitola.

 

@Chibearsv hope you haven't returned them yet.

I found one box on Bond Roberts that matches this pattern.

https://www.bondroberts.com/product/view/3468

Code is

0 000017 049962

Should be format 1 and enter 12 digits, but that will verify as a box of RASCC.

If you choose format 2 or 4 and enter all 13 digits it will verify as LG Deliciosos as expected.

 

@Chibearsv that being said the shade/shape/size of your barcodes and seal don't match the size of the 3 formats of 2009 barcodes I have found (very short barcodes, less than 1cm, maybe half that). Just saying the barcode serial number is now not necessarily the weird element.

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Do you have a number out of 5000? They're supposed to be numbered as 1234/5000 for example.

Edit: just saw the 0132/5000!

Edit 2: if you compare that number to Bond Roberts pictures I think they are off in format.

 

Might want to compare with these, might have to take the picture at a different angle (head on rather than 45 degrees):

 

Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 10.29.55 AM.png

Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 10.30.05 AM.png

Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 10.30.15 AM.png

Screen Shot 2021-01-20 at 10.30.23 AM.png

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Yep, I was just looking at those from the prior posts. These are going back. They cost too much for this angst. Appreciate all the help and hard work. 

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In addition to the previously noted inconsistencies of the warranty seal, the appearance of cigars, etc, I will add a few additional flags:

- no print clarity
94586ec83bb5f34dc4a88a5c2273c98e.webp

- poor printing and unacceptable cedar veneer knots
0a8ae0077f1e12b52c8da489543df2c6.jpg

- stained with varnish
b31632f286e679eeca69aab24731e670.webp

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