dire wolves were real!!! but not wolves.

[Ken Gargett]

Dire Wolves Weren’t Actually Wolves, DNA Analysis Reveals

Ancient DNA extracted from fossils shows the beast split off from Canis lupus and coyotes nearly 6 million years ago

An artist's illustration of two gray wolves (lower left) vying with a pack of dire wolves for a bison carcass near the tar pits in Rancho La Brea roughly 15,000 years ago. (Art by Mauricio Antón)

By Alex Fox

SMITHSONIANMAG.COM
JANUARY 15, 2021

 

Dire wolves have lunged into the public imagination through their enormous and fearsome fictional representation in Game of Thrones. Though the show exaggerates their size—they were only about 20 percent larger than today’s gray wolves—these prehistoric canines were very real and very deadly hunters that roamed North America until roughly 13,000 years ago.

 

But now, new research published this week in the journal Nature reveals that the real animal diverges from what you may have seen on TV in a more fundamental way. When researchers sequenced the extinct predator’s genome, they found it wasn’t a wolf at all but instead a distinct lineage that split off from the rest of the canines some 5.7 million years ago, reports James Gorman for the New York Times.

The startling result upends the notion that the dire wolf was a sister species to the gray wolf and adds precious evolutionary detail to a species that was once a common sight in North America. (More than 4,000 of the creatures have been pulled from the La Brea tar pits in Los Angeles alone, reports Angela Watercutter for Wired.)

To reveal the dire wolf’s true evolutionary identity, researchers extracted DNA from five fossils between 13,000 and 50,000 years old and sequenced their genomes. The team ultimately recovered around a quarter of the nuclear genome and a full complement of mitochondrial DNA from the samples, writes David Grimm for Science.

Though the bones of the dire wolf are so similar to today’s gray wolves that paleontologists sometimes have trouble telling them apart, the genes told an entirely different story when researchers compared them to those of living canine species.

“Even though they look like wolves, dire wolves actually have nothing to do with wolves,” Angela Perri, a zooarchaeologist at Durham University and one of the study’s lead authors, tells Science.

In addition to not being part of the wolf’s evolutionary tribe, the dire wolf DNA also showed that the species’ lineage is separate from the other living branches of the canine evolutionary tree, including African jackals, coyotes and dogs.

“These results totally shake up the idea that dire wolves were just bigger cousins of gray wolves,” Yukon paleontologist Grant Zazula, who was not involved in the new study, tells Riley Black for Scientific American. “The study of ancient DNA and proteins from fossil bones is rapidly rewriting the ice age and more recent history of North America’s mammals.”

To reflect the dire wolf’s now lonely perch on its very own branch of the canine evolutionary tree, researchers propose giving it a new scientific name: Aenocyon dirus. Speaking with Scientific American, Perri admits that the new findings likely won’t cause the whole world to abandon the common name dire wolf. “They will just join the club of things like maned wolves that are called wolves but aren’t really,” says Perri.

Though George R. R. Martin may have resurrected the dire wolf in our imaginations, the new study also found that the extinct species couldn’t interbreed with gray wolves or coyotes they shared the North American plains with. That means their extinction left behind no hybridized offspring that could have passed on traces of dire wolf DNA to living canines. So, sadly, that buff coyote you saw, probably wasn’t part dire wolf after all.

[MooseAMuffin]

Great read! Thanks, Ken!

[Fosgate]

Interesting to go back and see the fossil records of predators and see what used to roam the earth from huge bears, sabertooth cats etc. Around where I live  we have plenty of Mountain Lions I've seen some big mittins on a few i wouldn't want to tussle with. I've also talked to a few ranchers over the last year that claim to have spotted brown bears in the area. I'm hoping they are just sun bleached black bears. Browns (Griz) friggin terrify me. Had a run in with one out in the Tetons trying to trout fish. He ate the nice trout I had and I ate McDonalds that night and I was perfectly ok with that. I had my first run in with Arctic Gray Wolves about 5 years ago when two grays and a black one dashed accross the road. It was November early winter when they had their winter coat and good amount of fat store on them. The're was no mistaking what they were. They were certainly not the size of a German Shepard, Timber wolf or a freakishly large hybrid people are starting to breed. Not where we were at. These were BIG and everyone in the truck reacted immediatly, "Holy Sh!!!". I remember guys saying they are a "bit larger" than a Timber wolf but they are for sure noticably larger than Timber Wolves in early winter.  I know I would not want to be in the woods unarmed with Arctic Grays around. I'd think Dire Wolves would still seem freakishly large by todays largest wolves. Would be interesting to know what kind of demeanor they had socially as one notices a slight difference from Coyotes, Timber Wolves and Artic Grays in how they hunt, level of aggression, intelligence etc. 

 

 

[Ej456]

??

[Ken Gargett]

3 hours ago, Fosgate said:

Interesting to go back and see the fossil records of predators and see what used to roam the earth from huge bears, sabertooth cats etc. Around where I live  we have plenty of Mountain Lions I've seen some big mittins on a few i wouldn't want to tussle with. I've also talked to a few ranchers over the last year that claim to have spotted brown bears in the area. I'm hoping they are just sun bleached black bears. Browns (Griz) friggin terrify me. Had a run in with one out in the Tetons trying to trout fish. He ate the nice trout I had and I ate McDonalds that night and I was perfectly ok with that. I had my first run in with Arctic Gray Wolves about 5 years ago when two grays and a black one dashed accross the road. It was November early winter when they had their winter coat and good amount of fat store on them. The're was no mistaking what they were. They were certainly not the size of a German Shepard, Timber wolf or a freakishly large hybrid people are starting to breed. Not where we were at. These were BIG and everyone in the truck reacted immediatly, "Holy Sh!!!". I remember guys saying they are a "bit larger" than a Timber wolf but they are for sure noticably larger than Timber Wolves in early winter.  I know I would not want to be in the woods unarmed with Arctic Grays around. I'd think Dire Wolves would still seem freakishly large by todays largest wolves. Would be interesting to know what kind of demeanor they had socially as one notices a slight difference from Coyotes, Timber Wolves and Artic Grays in how they hunt, level of aggression, intelligence etc. 

 

 

read a really interesting piece recently about how the return of wolves is causing the mountain lions real problems, killing their cubs. 

i'd have given the bear my fish, my gear, my car, if it wanted them!

[Fosgate]

5 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

read a really interesting piece recently about how the return of wolves is causing the mountain lions real problems, killing their cubs. 

i'd have given the bear my fish, my gear, my car, if it wanted them!

Wolves are currently causing lots of problems. They have not been around the Central Rockies for so long that big game and other predators have not had to interact with them. They werre decimating the elk herds for awhile until the elk learned where to travel more safely. Ranchers of course have had whole herds of livestock killed by wolves but little eaten of them. 

[Hammer Smokin']

When I awoke, the Dire Wolf, six hundred pounds of sin
Was grinning at my window, all I said was come on in
Don't murder me, I beg of you, don't murder me
 

The Wolf came in, I got my cards, we sat down for a game
I cut my deck to the Queen of Spades, but the cards were all the same
Don't murder me, I beg of you, don't murder me
 

In the backwash of Fennario, the black and bloody mire
The Dire Wolf collects his dues, while the boys sing 'round the fire
Don't murder me, I beg of you, don't murder me
 

[Ken Gargett]

7 hours ago, Fosgate said:

Ranchers of course have had whole herds of livestock killed by wolves but little eaten of them. 

from everything i can find, that is not happening. aside from the number of wolves still being small, the govt figures showed domestic dogs killing 100% higher number of cattle and nearly 2000% higher numbers of sheep. it does depend somewhat on which dept's figures you look at but in '15, Fish and Wildlife had a total of 161 cattle lost to wolves (sure, for farmers, any are too many) in the northern rockies. other depts had slightly higher figures but in all cases, the amount was a tiny fraction of the overall deaths. and certainly nothing at all like going around and slaughtering entire herds. 

the most recent figures i found - i am sure that there are others more up to date - were for 14/15 and they had native carnivores and domestic dogs killing 0.4 percent of the 119 million cattle and sheep inventoried in the U.S. of that, wolves were a tiny percentage. 

[Bijan]

@Ken Gargett sounds like the feelings that led to the eradication of wolves in the first place.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/the-wolf-that-changed-america-wolf-wars-americas-campaign-to-eradicate-the-wolf/4312/#:~:text=The U.S. Fish and Wildlife,dens%2C and hunted with dogs.

 

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, Bijan said:

@Ken Gargett sounds like the feelings that led to the eradication of wolves in the first place.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/the-wolf-that-changed-america-wolf-wars-americas-campaign-to-eradicate-the-wolf/4312/#:~:text=The U.S. Fish and Wildlife,dens%2C and hunted with dogs.

 

thanks for posting that. interesting. i would not single out american farmers and wolves. humans have done similar things all over the world. 

[Bijan]

Just now, Ken Gargett said:

thanks for posting that. interesting. i would not single out american farmers and wolves. humans have done similar things all over the world. 

Yes I wouldn't single them out. I just meant that is a well known example. Wolves were pretty much eradicated in Europe and elsewhere probably due to the same feelings before America. But it is interesting to note just the same.

[SigmundChurchill]

17 hours ago, Fosgate said:

Interesting to go back and see the fossil records of predators and see what used to roam the earth from huge bears, sabertooth cats etc. Around where I live  we have plenty of Mountain Lions I've seen some big mittins on a few i wouldn't want to tussle with. I've also talked to a few ranchers over the last year that claim to have spotted brown bears in the area. I'm hoping they are just sun bleached black bears. Browns (Griz) friggin terrify me. Had a run in with one out in the Tetons trying to trout fish. He ate the nice trout I had and I ate McDonalds that night and I was perfectly ok with that. I had my first run in with Arctic Gray Wolves about 5 years ago when two grays and a black one dashed accross the road. It was November early winter when they had their winter coat and good amount of fat store on them. The're was no mistaking what they were. They were certainly not the size of a German Shepard, Timber wolf or a freakishly large hybrid people are starting to breed. Not where we were at. These were BIG and everyone in the truck reacted immediatly, "Holy Sh!!!". I remember guys saying they are a "bit larger" than a Timber wolf but they are for sure noticably larger than Timber Wolves in early winter.  I know I would not want to be in the woods unarmed with Arctic Grays around. I'd think Dire Wolves would still seem freakishly large by todays largest wolves. Would be interesting to know what kind of demeanor they had socially as one notices a slight difference from Coyotes, Timber Wolves and Artic Grays in how they hunt, level of aggression, intelligence etc. 

 

 

Two guys are out in the woods on a camping trip when they notice a bear charging at them.

One guy quickly grabs his running shoes and starts to put them on.

The other guy says, "What are you doing?  You cant outrun a bear."

The first guy says, "I don't have to outrun the bear.  I just have to outrun you."

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Yes I wouldn't single them out. I just meant that is a well known example. Wolves were pretty much eradicated in Europe and elsewhere probably due to the same feelings before America. But it is interesting to note just the same.

there is an article i have somewhere which i wish i could put my hands on. was about ranchers killing wolves. i think it was near yellowstone but somewhere that way.

the wolves had largely been wiped out in this particular region, which was supposed to protect the cattle. but it meant that local elk or antelope or whatever is around there increased in numbers massively. they then needed new sources of food. a species of tree had a bark they liked but this tree was mostly found near the rivers and streams. but the elk (we'll call them that) stripped the bark for food and that resulted in many of these trees dying. these were the trees which beavers mostly used. suddenly the beavers had far less of the trees they needed for food and for their dams. they reduced in numbers and dams were not maintained. plus there was serious erosion from the fact that the trees no longer held the banks together. this led to significant changes in the waterways of the region which in turn impacted on the cattle from the ranchers (don't ask me to be too specific with this - a while since i read it). 

in killing the wolves in the first place, these ranchers caused problems for many more cattle than the wolves ever took. understandably, no one had foreseen this. 

the problem, and this is worldwide, is that humanity has just launched in without thought and blame will be shunted anywhere but where it belongs. 

that said, if i am a rancher and see a sheep or cow attacked, i can't imagine not reacting. 

 

 

[Bijan]

9 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

there is an article i have somewhere which i wish i could put my hands on. was about ranchers killing wolves. i think it was near yellowstone but somewhere that way.

I saw it in video form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch/ysa5OBhXz-Q

This was about the wolves being reintroduced to yellowstone (the reverse of the ecological process you describe).

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, Bijan said:

I saw it in video form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch/ysa5OBhXz-Q

This was about the wolves being reintroduced to yellowstone (the reverse of the ecological process you describe).

thanks. fascinating stuff. the old memory not quite so shot as i thought. 

[Fosgate]

Around here ranchers are not really trustworthy of govt officials to include federal game fish and parks wardens or the press. Back in 2007 the governor had to get involved in removing one guy that was a complete bastard to landowners and outdoorsmen. https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2007/05/26/s-d-governor-wants-rude-game-warden-out/  They got rid of him and then had problems with landowners and depradation hunts in that the GF&P was not properly managing the deer population causing a large spike in population causing the deer to often hang out near ranches and put a huge dent in the winter hay of ranchers reserves. Many got fed up with the lack of response and just started inviting guys out to harvest them illegally since the govt wasn't doing anything about it until 2017 https://www.aberdeennews.com/outdoors/wildlife-damage-management-program-helps-farmers-ranchers-fend-off-hungry-deer/article_68fd8b93-539e-590f-a133-e75a84c577b4.html. Then there was a guy that was contracted with the state for arial predator manageent. They pulled his permit for some reason I cant remember and gave it to some other guy that ranchers in the area had a beef with I guess. 

Anyway. I work fin the field or an Agribusiness insurance company and all of Western South Dakota (West of the Missouri River) is my coverage territory. When I used to deal with livestock I had a gent near Reva SD lost 35 head of Black Baldie Angus at about $1200-1400 a head. Two of his other neighbors lost about 20 head each over the corse of a month. We paid the claim and didn't hear the outcome of the solution to the problem but we didn't hear anything similar for about a year until I had another rancher a few miles away near Camp Crook lost about 15 head and a neighbor lost 10 overnight. I heard through the grapevine that someone tracked a pack of wolves accross the Montana Border, killed several and buried them. Typically  the only people aware in these catlte losses are the Ranchers, a few neighbors what few there are in this area. The vets they hire to determine cause of death for our report and the insurance company people. The only person in that chain that can report it to authorities are the livestock owners and they never call them and as long as insurance pays there is no need for them to go file any reimbursement or aid programs to the state. 

Havign lived in Wyoming before I find they are even less thrilled about having law engorcement or govt on their land and their trespassing laws are old school in that you just don't go on someones property univited and have known people that have been shot at for trespassing while trying to follow a trout stream near the Big Horn Mountains. 

South Western SD near the Rosebud and Pine Ridge Indian reservations, dogs were a big problem around there. Dogs would run in packs taking down deer and cattle. Every once in a while they'll kill someone the most reaent a woman and an 8 year old girl. After the later of the two the hunt was on after that to expteminate packs of strays. I have not heard of anything since.

 https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2015/03/17/stray-dogs-gathered-reservation-woman-dies/24894147/

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2014/11/19/official-dog-attack-killed-girl-pine-ridge-reservation/19286029/

I've heard a few rublings of Ferel Hogs being spotted around Gregory County East of Winner SD. Different kind of problem entirely and probalby more of a threat east of the missouri where more cropland exist than west. 

One of the biggest challenges of wildlife management. It seems every time there is some headway made with western ranchers some series of incidents with Game Fish and Parks or Bureau of Land Management makes them reel back. Ther's an article similar to this one that a frind that is a Federal Fish and Wildlife Warden in California sent to me once about how states mismanage their wild game and creating a downward spiral in conservation effforts by managing more by protecting their budgets in lower population count years rather than the warden population data they continuously collect throughout the year. https://blog.eastmans.com/the-predator-death-spiral/

 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

3 minutes ago, Fosgate said:

Around here ranchers are not really trustworthy of govt officials to include federal game fish and parks wardens or the press. Back in 2007 the governor had to get involved in removing one guy that was a complete bastard to landowners and outdoorsmen. https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2007/05/26/s-d-governor-wants-rude-game-warden-out/  They got rid of him and then had problems with landowners and depradation hunts in that the GF&P was not properly managing the deer population causing a large spike in population causing the deer to often hang out near ranches and put a huge dent in the winter hay of ranchers reserves. Many got fed up with the lack of response and just started inviting guys out to harvest them illegally since the govt wasn't doing anything about it until 2017 https://www.aberdeennews.com/outdoors/wildlife-damage-management-program-helps-farmers-ranchers-fend-off-hungry-deer/article_68fd8b93-539e-590f-a133-e75a84c577b4.html. Then there was a guy that was contracted with the state for arial predator manageent. They pulled his permit for some reason I cant remember and gave it to some other guy that ranchers in the area had a beef with I guess. 

Anyway. I work fin the field or an Agribusiness insurance company and all of Western South Dakota (West of the Missouri River) is my coverage territory. When I used to deal with livestock I had a gent near Reva SD lost 35 head of Black Baldie Angus at about $1200-1400 a head. Two of his other neighbors lost about 20 head each over the corse of a month. We paid the claim and didn't hear the outcome of the solution to the problem but we didn't hear anything similar for about a year until I had another rancher a few miles away near Camp Crook lost about 15 head and a neighbor lost 10 overnight. I heard through the grapevine that someone tracked a pack of wolves accross the Montana Border, killed several and buried them. Typically  the only people aware in these catlte losses are the Ranchers, a few neighbors what few there are in this area. The vets they hire to determine cause of death for our report and the insurance company people. The only person in that chain that can report it to authorities are the livestock owners and they never call them and as long as insurance pays there is no need for them to go file any reimbursement or aid programs to the state. 

Havign lived in Wyoming before I find they are even less thrilled about having law engorcement or govt on their land and their trespassing laws are old school in that you just don't go on someones property univited and have known people that have been shot at for trespassing while trying to follow a trout stream near the Big Horn Mountains. 

South Western SD near the Rosebud and Pine Ridge Indian reservations, dogs were a big problem around there. Dogs would run in packs taking down deer and cattle. Every once in a while they'll kill someone the most reaent a woman and an 8 year old girl. After the later of the two the hunt was on after that to expteminate packs of strays. I have not heard of anything since.

 https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2015/03/17/stray-dogs-gathered-reservation-woman-dies/24894147/

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/crime/2014/11/19/official-dog-attack-killed-girl-pine-ridge-reservation/19286029/

I've heard a few rublings of Ferel Hogs being spotted around Gregory County East of Winner SD. Different kind of problem entirely and probalby more of a threat east of the missouri where more cropland exist than west. 

One of the biggest challenges of wildlife management. It seems every time there is some headway made with western ranchers some series of incidents with Game Fish and Parks or Bureau of Land Management makes them reel back. Ther's an article similar to this one that a frind that is a Federal Fish and Wildlife Warden in California sent to me once about how states mismanage their wild game and creating a downward spiral in conservation effforts by managing more by protecting their budgets in lower population count years rather than the warden population data they continuously collect throughout the year. https://blog.eastmans.com/the-predator-death-spiral/

 

 

 

that highlights the problem both sides have - inaccurate figures because of the difficulties of getting things exact. and also people on both sides working solo to do what they think best for them. plus inept govt officials. but as someone who believes the planet is doomed, this is all just a small part of it. 

[Fosgate]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

there is an article i have somewhere which i wish i could put my hands on. was about ranchers killing wolves. i think it was near yellowstone but somewhere that way.

the wolves had largely been wiped out in this particular region, which was supposed to protect the cattle. but it meant that local elk or antelope or whatever is around there increased in numbers massively. they then needed new sources of food. a species of tree had a bark they liked but this tree was mostly found near the rivers and streams. but the elk (we'll call them that) stripped the bark for food and that resulted in many of these trees dying. these were the trees which beavers mostly used. suddenly the beavers had far less of the trees they needed for food and for their dams. they reduced in numbers and dams were not maintained. plus there was serious erosion from the fact that the trees no longer held the banks together. this led to significant changes in the waterways of the region which in turn impacted on the cattle from the ranchers (don't ask me to be too specific with this - a while since i read it). 

in killing the wolves in the first place, these ranchers caused problems for many more cattle than the wolves ever took. understandably, no one had foreseen this. 

the problem, and this is worldwide, is that humanity has just launched in without thought and blame will be shunted anywhere but where it belongs. 

that said, if i am a rancher and see a sheep or cow attacked, i can't imagine not reacting. 

 

 

Sounds familiar and I think your spot on. Durign the settlemet days there were a lot of "Tall tales, and Fables" told that greatly imbelleshed the dangers of the west involving encounters with natives, wolves, bears etc. I remember in grade school being read a story written by Laura Ingles Wilder about an encounter her family had with a pack of wolves attempting to force their way into the Wilder home in Minnesota. How much of it was real, fabricated or imbellished I don't know, but it made a good childhood scare. 

Interesting reminder of the interaction between species and how they are related. I was in GIllette WY around 2002 and a couple fracking companies were having some get together down town and everyone in town was encouraged to attend. My cousin, a friedn and our girlfriends all went down there and some guy got up on stage talking about how great and safe fracking is and they had containers of ice cold water full of water recovered from a fracking operation to drink to show off the quality. He also mentioned how the population of Antelope exploded since settlers had arrived to the numbers we see today because fracking leaves alot of pure water ponds behind that in turn support more wildlife in such a desolate area. (not that scattered native tribes were not hunting them or that vast herds of bison for competition were long gone etc.) It was weird, like you see in the movies of some guy selling snake oil out of the back of a wagon in some old western. 

I've worked with the owners (super nice people) of Wild Idea Buffalo https://wildideabuffalo.com/ several times and depending on perspective they're either ahead or behind their times. Talking with Dan one day and I really think he is on to something. With so many people pushing towards grass, fed, hormone free, humane treatment etc That's not a problem for Bison. Angus and Herfords being common up here they really are not meant for this climate. You need shelter to get them out of the heat on hot years and they die by the dozen. Have to move them back and forth from summer to winter range. Stockpile a large amount of hay to get them through winter. Give them several different shots, vet visits etc. Buffalo, they just need a big field fulll of grass to roam and a water source. They are not suseptible to disease, parasites and weather as much as cattle and fully capbable of fending off large predators. Their popularity is picking up because of this. Buffalo meat to me growing up was always dry as places would cook a buffalo burger to the texture of a hockey puck because they would try and cook it like a standard 80-85% lean beef patty. I swing in and buy cuts from Dan every now and then and they are always fabulous. 

I see sites from guys like https://www.saveelk.com/ that I've popped in on every few years and I think alot is motivated by the elk herds that used to be around there unchecked for decades. Clearly emotional about the loss of elk herds and predation on cattle as they have been there since the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone. I would hope that someday things balance out a bit better and I agree with Dan of Wild Idea Buffalo that raising buffalo instead of cattle in the western plains will be a large player in restoring that balance.  

[Ken Gargett]

11 minutes ago, Fosgate said:

Sounds familiar and I think your spot on. Durign the settlemet days there were a lot of "Tall tales, and Fables" told that greatly imbelleshed the dangers of the west involving encounters with natives, wolves, bears etc. I remember in grade school being read a story written by Laura Ingles Wilder about an encounter her family had with a pack of wolves attempting to force their way into the Wilder home in Minnesota. How much of it was real, fabricated or imbellished I don't know, but it made a good childhood scare. 

Interesting reminder of the interaction between species and how they are related. I was in GIllette WY around 2002 and a couple fracking companies were having some get together down town and everyone in town was encouraged to attend. My cousin, a friedn and our girlfriends all went down there and some guy got up on stage talking about how great and safe fracking is and they had containers of ice cold water full of water recovered from a fracking operation to drink to show off the quality. He also mentioned how the population of Antelope exploded since settlers had arrived to the numbers we see today because fracking leaves alot of pure water ponds behind that in turn support more wildlife in such a desolate area. (not that scattered native tribes were not hunting them or that vast herds of bison for competition were long gone etc.) It was weird, like you see in the movies of some guy selling snake oil out of the back of a wagon in some old western. 

I've worked with the owners (super nice people) of Wild Idea Buffalo https://wildideabuffalo.com/ several times and depending on perspective they're either ahead or behind their times. Talking with Dan one day and I really think he is on to something. With so many people pushing towards grass, fed, hormone free, humane treatment etc That's not a problem for Bison. Angus and Herfords being common up here they really are not meant for this climate. You need shelter to get them out of the heat on hot years and they die by the dozen. Have to move them back and forth from summer to winter range. Stockpile a large amount of hay to get them through winter. Give them several different shots, vet visits etc. Buffalo, they just need a big field fulll of grass to roam and a water source. They are not suseptible to disease, parasites and weather as much as cattle and fully capbable of fending off large predators. Their popularity is picking up because of this. Buffalo meat to me growing up was always dry as places would cook a buffalo burger to the texture of a hockey puck because they would try and cook it like a standard 80-85% lean beef patty. I swing in and buy cuts from Dan every now and then and they are always fabulous. 

I see sites from guys like https://www.saveelk.com/ that I've popped in on every few years and I think alot is motivated by the elk herds that used to be around there unchecked for decades. Clearly emotional about the loss of elk herds and predation on cattle as they have been there since the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone. I would hope that someday things balance out a bit better and I agree with Dan of Wild Idea Buffalo that raising buffalo instead of cattle in the western plains will be a large player in restoring that balance.  

interesting stuff.

back here, had our early settlers twigged to the reality of how healthy kangaroo meat is and how many of them there are, i'm sure we would have huge kangaroo farms and cattle would be a curiosity. 

all this also shows that self interest does stuck out, no matter what 'side' people are on. environmentalists assume that they are near sainthood (and a great many do incredible work) but that does not man that there are some who don't fudge figures and reports. they may believe it for the greater good but that doesn't excuse it. on the other side, ranchers and hunters do the same. 

and i suspect both sides always will. 

your comment about balance is spot on. 

[Fosgate]

Thinking again about the behavior of the Dire Wolf and wondering if it hunted in packs or if it was more solitude seeking like a fox. Red Fox in have always made me curios. Occasionaly my neighbor would trap one. I've been fortunate to encounter them face to face 4 times in my life. On one memorable occasion was going out after a blizzard with my brother when I has maybe 6yrs old went out in snow shoes to go ice fishing. After a storm mice are always making new tunnels to the top of the snow and as shy as red fox are they were out in broad daylight mousing with no fear as a pair followed us and we'd kick up a mouse, catch and toss it in their direction and watch them go after the mouse. The last time was really cool to see a mother and four kits behind her hid in the weeds and waited unitl I passed before I saw them crossing behind me in the rear view mirror. I pulled over and watched them for about 15 minutes I had not seen one for a good 20 years prior to that encounter. 

[Ej456]

The anti wolf

[Fosgate]

This popped up in my Youtube suggested list. Weird.