Canada plain packaging

[Bijan]

5 minutes ago, Jason55555 said:

**Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Cuban factories when they are sorting the cigars by color and shade etc what would the incentive be to keep the prized rolled stock just to simple put a bland band on it and throw it in a cardboard box.

From what I understand the two steps are detached. HSA (the Cuban manufacturer) doesn't want anything to do with plain packaging and doesn't cooperate at all. Havana House the Canadian importer does all the plain packaging themselves.

I have to assume HSA gives Havana House the same dress boxes and slide lid boxes they give every other distributor and Havana House has to throw them away and put the cigars in the cardboard boxes. If HSA was willing to help by just providing cigars in bulk (at some sort of discount), they'd probably put them in cardboard themselves and avoid giving that discount.

But my statement also needs a correct me if I'm wrong disclaimer.

[SigSauer516]

What is the purpose of Plain Packaging Laws???

[Puros Y Vino]

17 minutes ago, SigSauer516 said:

What is the purpose of Plain Packaging Laws???

To make the product "ugly". The argument is that the pretty boxes and bands are enticing to children.  Never seen anyone underage in a Tobacconist.  But anyways. The end goal is to slowly drain the life out of the market by frustrating the consumer to the point where they no longer buy tobacco. At least locally.  They dont want to outright ban it as it does still bring in huge revenues. So much so that they hide the numbers in with alchohol tax revenues.   Weed is the new tax cash cow for Canada.  It's cool with the young folks, which means long term tax streams over the decades will grow nicely.

[Puros Y Vino]

1 hour ago, Jason55555 said:

I've been into many cannabis shops and the level of detail of the actual shop and service is beautiful!!! smoking areas, lounge chairs, clubs. Basically the things our American neighbors enjoy in many of their cigar shops. ( There is only 1 cigar shop in Toronto that still provides all those services which shall remain nameless.... )

 

What!?!?! Cannabis stores have smoking areas?!!? Legal? If legal then we cigar smokers need to ask for the same damn thing!

[Jason55555]

24 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

What!?!?! Cannabis stores have smoking areas?!!? Legal? If legal then we cigar smokers need to ask for the same damn thing!

Once again stores shall remain nameless, but not "legal" I've seen it happen on more then one occasion in "Head Shops"  and sometimes in dispensaries, disensaries are bit more diligent about smoking indoors being gov regulated.... but still happen because they know what's coming.

Read bellow if you want to see the APEX of hypocrisy & as Cigar smokers we should be ?....

Toronto could soon be getting legal cannabis lounges and cafes (blogto.com)

[Chibearsv]

21 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

To make the product "ugly". The argument is that the pretty boxes and bands are enticing to children.  Never seen anyone underage in a Tobacconist.  But anyways. The end goal is to slowly drain the life out of the market by frustrating the consumer to the point where they no longer buy tobacco. At least locally.  They dont want to outright ban it as it does still bring in huge revenues. So much so that they hide the numbers in with alchohol tax revenues.   Weed is the new tax cash cow for Canada.  It's cool with the young folks, which means long term tax streams over the decades will grow nicely.

Thank you government.  Problem solved, well done.

How many kids under 17 does anyone ever see chomping on a cigar?  Is menthol or flavored chewing tobacco still being sold but in plain packaging?  How about THC gummy bears?  What's more likely, seeing a kid dipping into flavored Skoal in plain packaging or chomping on a Monte 2 that came in a fully adorned box?  

[Shrimpchips]

26 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

What!?!?! Cannabis stores have smoking areas?!!? Legal? If legal then we cigar smokers need to ask for the same damn thing!

But cannabis is a beautiful gift from nature, something fully natural and pure! How can you compare that to tobacco?!?   ?
 

 

[rckymtn22]

31 minutes ago, Shrimpchips said:

But cannabis is a beautiful gift from nature, something fully natural and pure! How can you compare that to tobacco?!?   ?
 

You forgot to mention that cannabis is not addictive where evil cigar tobacco is 100% addictive....  think of the children. 

[99call]

16 hours ago, Fugu said:

What I always said. They are altering the product. Original packaging is part of the product.

I guess the angle I was coming from it at was:

If someone is selling a pack of cigerrettes theres almost an industry standard that relates to its 'delivery to market'.   There has to be some basic guarentee that when you open that pack, the contents isn't just broken, wet mush. 

Similarly with alcohol, it doesn't matter how much the authorities may distain of people drinking.  They can put all the labels and yadda yadda they want on the packaging,  but they have to live up to delivery of goods in good condition surely???.     If they decided to fill ziplock backs with whisky, and they all started bursting when you stacked them up,  surely this is like an active action to render it impossible to deliver to market in a fit state. 

I feel so sorry for the Canadian suppliers, they are doing to be left with boxes and boxes of soggy, smashed cigars left on the shelf. 

 

[canadianbeaver]

As if

- children will buy a big $25-$40 brown phallic stinky smoke that takes an hour of their video game time

- does not taste like lemon watermelon fizz

- their dad will steal it from under their bed when they are at school or out on a date

- ugly labels and recycle boxes keep us from throwing that shite out and put it in our beautiful humidors

- smoke the thing if we buy the single and give the air the finger

- buy our boxes and get them by mail.

 

ok that’s all.

CB.

[Puros Y Vino]

1 hour ago, Chibearsv said:

Thank you government.  Problem solved, well done.

How many kids under 17 does anyone ever see chomping on a cigar?  Is menthol or flavored chewing tobacco still being sold but in plain packaging?  How about THC gummy bears?  What's more likely, seeing a kid dipping into flavored Skoal in plain packaging or chomping on a Monte 2 that came in a fully adorned box?  

Over the years I've come to this conclusion.  No matter how many rational and sane arguments and data you put forward in a politician's face, they ultimately decide on how they feel personally about. Either they don't like the smell, or tobacco killed my grandpa, etc. And a lot of it has to do with public sentiment.  Most people dont like tobacco. So they get pandered to even when there is no real reason to do so.   Before the plain packaging became law in Canada, the gov't put out an online form for citizens to voice their counter concerns over its' implementation.  Everyone I knew who smoked as a hobby or ran/worked at a B&M passed this link forward. Posted it on FB groups, maybe even here IIRC.  The B&M's had the best list of counterpoints of course.  But one told me basically the online form thing was just to give smoker a place to cool their jets. They've already made up their minds and had the plan ready to go.  So much for Democracy.

[Puros Y Vino]

1 hour ago, Jason55555 said:

Once again stores shall remain nameless, but not "legal" I've seen it happen on more then one occasion in "Head Shops"  and sometimes in dispensaries, disensaries are bit more diligent about smoking indoors being gov regulated.... but still happen because they know what's coming.

Read bellow if you want to see the APEX of hypocrisy & as Cigar smokers we should be ?....

Toronto could soon be getting legal cannabis lounges and cafes (blogto.com)

Yeah. I remember this article and I'm keeping an eye on how this pans out.

[Fugu]

12 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Plain packaging of alcohol, soft drinks, fast food, confectionery, snack food....

.... cars, planes, hiking the Oz outback.... 

... and remember to always wear your drab-brown latex when engaged in dangerous sex practices ?

(you’ll excuse my weird imagination but can’t help, in these threads I always feel like being screwed and abused by some perv somehow...)

5 hours ago, La_Tigre said:

I still say Habanos needs to get on the front end of this. Box everything in the same wood boxes they would normally leave the factory. Just forgo the branding iron and have plain packaging runs in the 4 main factories. It cannot be that hard to have these production runs just like the RE runs.

I think, in addition to what @bundwallah said, there might also be legal aspects linked to it. As the producer you can’t claim trademark property rights to a product that you effectively don’t (cannot) trademark. Also all quality- and authenticity- / anti-counterfeiting means and guarantees are then taken from you. But what your buyer (read importer/distributor) eventually does with the product is out of your control and business, so you ship as usual, and all fine. (in that regard)

[Cigar Surgeon]

46 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

Over the years I've come to this conclusion.  No matter how many rational and sane arguments and data you put forward in a politician's face, they ultimately decide on how they feel personally about. Either they don't like the smell, or tobacco killed my grandpa, etc. And a lot of it has to do with public sentiment.  Most people dont like tobacco. So they get pandered to even when there is no real reason to do so.   Before the plain packaging became law in Canada, the gov't put out an online form for citizens to voice their counter concerns over its' implementation.  Everyone I knew who smoked as a hobby or ran/worked at a B&M passed this link forward. Posted it on FB groups, maybe even here IIRC.  The B&M's had the best list of counterpoints of course.  But one told me basically the online form thing was just to give smoker a place to cool their jets. They've already made up their minds and had the plan ready to go.  So much for Democracy.

As you well know I'm a cynical guy by nature. But they put out the public commentary period, so I wrote up what I believed to be a fairly well constructed letter that included non-industry studies refuting underage cigar use, as well as challenging the assertions that cigars had the same or worse health impact as cigarettes.

Not a single MP responded with anything other than arguments which were appeals to emotion and canned responses.

I think the retailers in Canada should join together for a class action lawsuit as it was clear the Canadian Government had made up its mind long before regulations were drafted.

[Fugu]

53 minutes ago, 99call said:

I guess the angle I was coming from it at was

Oh, comment wasn’t ironic at all. I concur with you, 99 percent!

42 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

So much for Democracy.

Not democracy’s fault. I am all for it, the best govtl form we have, still. It is always in its incompetent execution by incompetent people being lead by personal interests. And often, a lack of independent external control. I digress...

But one aspect being the limiting of overreaching, paternalistic regulations. Another, all too easy forgotten, the protection of minority rights.

[Fosgate]

Some nitwit bureucrat thoght of an idea to turn off people from smoking and thought cheapening the image of premium fine cigars would discourage smokers. I think in a way they are right in that it has a psychological effect for anyone that remembers generic products.

 

[sw15825]

20 hours ago, Bijan said:

I believe right now it is not available at all.

I think the regulations allow a 10 digit alphanumeric code, so I think the box code information could be conveyed.

Also regulations say that if the box were made of wood or metal it doesn't need to be this color, and could be the plain color of the wood or metal.

Is there a link I could read up on what Canadian officials are trying to do here. It seems so ridiculous and sad to me. I'm guessing to not promote smoking to young generations. Not to mention ripe for fakes..

[Bijan]

47 minutes ago, sw15825 said:

Is there a link I could read up on what Canadian officials are trying to do here. It seems so ridiculous and sad to me. I'm guessing to not promote smoking to young generations. Not to mention ripe for fakes..

Here's the link to the government of Canada's "simple" explanation of the rules:

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-concerns/tobacco/legislation/federal-regulations/products-regulations-plain-standardized-appearance/facts.html

Here's a blurb on the justification:

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-concerns/tobacco/legislation/federal-regulations/products-regulations-plain-standardized-appearance.html

Original news release:

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2019/05/the-government-of-canada-implements-commitment-to-plain-packaging-for-tobacco-products.html

"The Strategy aims to drive down tobacco use to 5% of the Canadian population by 2035."

Here are the actual rules that apply to cigars:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2019-107/page-6.html#h-1123673

Edit: That last one is on the cigars themselves, there's a similar list of rules for packaging/boxes, here:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2019-107/page-1.html#h-1123303

[Puros Y Vino]

2 minutes ago, Bijan said:

"The Strategy aims to drive down tobacco use to 5% of the Canadian population by 2035."

Wow. A whole 5% drop to basically kill off pretty much every tobacconist and piss off the end user?  Or are they hoping to convert most of us into cannabis users?

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, bundwallah said:

Wow. A whole 5% drop to basically kill off pretty much every tobacconist and piss off the end user?  Or are they hoping to convert most of us into cannabis users?

I think we're at 15% now. So it would be a 10% drop in terms of the population, but 66% drop in current use. It's pretty big and I don't think the plain packaging will have enough of an effect to achieve this (given they've done so much already over the years, if regulations had that much effect we'd be at zero percent already).

And sadly they probably do want to convert us to cannabis users

[Bijan]

And it's probably 99% cigarettes and vaping, and 1% cigars (if that much). So we're just collateral damage. Guilty by association. Etc.

[Fuzz]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

.... cars, planes, hiking the Oz outback.... 

... and remember to always wear your drab-brown latex when engaged in dangerous sex practices ?

(you’ll excuse my weird imagination but can’t help, in these threads I always feel like being screwed and abused by some perv somehow...)

I think, in addition to what @bundwallah said, there might also be legal aspects linked to it. As the producer you can’t claim trademark property rights to a product that you effectively don’t (cannot) trademark. Also all quality- and authenticity- / anti-counterfeiting means and guarantees are then taken from you. But what your buyer (read importer/distributor) eventually does with the product is out of your control and business, so you ship as usual, and all fine. (in that regard)

Bugger off!! You can't take my fluro green, glow in the dark, pizza flavoured condoms!

[99call]

11 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Bugger off!! You can't take my fluro green, glow in the dark, pizza flavoured condoms!

                          

[Chibearsv]

37 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Bugger off!! You can't take my fluro green, glow in the dark, pizza flavoured condoms!

How do you know they’re pizza flavored?  ?

[MMarbs]

8 hours ago, SigSauer516 said:

What is the purpose of Plain Packaging Laws???

To try and destroy the tobacco industry. The current political party in power is filled with neo-puritans who hate tobacco. Do I think they will succeed in their goals? Probably not, considering that the percentage of the population that smokes has most likely increased since COVID. The reduction to 5% was wishful thinking even before COVID.

And yes, you can point out these politicians and bureaucrats are not following through on the logical implications of their starting premises ("why not introduce plain packaging for alcohol if you're so concerned about marketing and the underage?"), but they don't care. They made their decision before the law was introduced to parliament, and, as others have noted, a far greater percentage of the population drinks than uses tobacco. They would have an extremely difficult time trying to apply this kind of law to alcohol; but not with tobacco. We cigar smokers pay the price - and tobacconists pay an even bigger price.

Maybe exemptions for premium cigars and pipe tobacco could be introduced if we have a change of government in the next few years, but no high hopes right now.