Jorge Padron talks about dark and oily wrappers.


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18 minutes ago, Jimmy_jack said:

This is what they do with those garbage Liga Private. There’s video of them wrapping cigars with soaking wet wrapper leaf and black hands. 

You are right they are garbage and the room note is repugnant

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Boy oh boy, some strong opinions in this thread without ever having stepped inside a factory in Nicaragua. Grab a cigar, a coffee, and get comfortable. You're pretty misinformed. Drew Estate te

The Surgeon is nailing it for me. Lol at the idea that NC manufacturers somehow haven't unlocked the mysteries of how to grow a crop, and that only the mystics of Cuba understand how to age and blend

I have tidied up the thread as the rhetoric needs to be toned down.  On FOH we tackle issues not people.  We have discussions with the intent to shine light on a subject. Tailor your posts in suc

I will never forget the Drew Estate "slurry" video that was on the CA site years ago.  Many have seen it.  They were heating up the tar from the stems in a big wok style pot and dragging wrapper leaves through it. They boasted about how this gave their wrappers a consistent shade from box to box.  Now as unappealing as this was to me, at least this was using tobacco byproduct.  The RP/DE java cigars are a crime against humanity. For the five minutes I endured one, the stains on my fingers, lips and soul that they left, took a while to wash off. It was like a terracotta mud.  Gross.   

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1 minute ago, bundwallah said:

I will never forget the Drew Estate "slurry" video that was on the CA site years ago.  Many have seen it.  They were heating up the tar from the stems in a big wok style pot and dragging wrapper leaves through it. They boasted about how this gave their wrappers a consistent shade from box to box.  Now as unappealing as this was to me, at least this was using tobacco byproduct.  The RP/DE java cigars are a crime against humanity. For the five minutes I endured one, the stains on my fingers, lips and soul that they left, took a while to wash off. It was like a terracotta mud.  Gross.   

Straight trash bro. Drew estate cigars are disgusting

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The year of the rat looks like it has had a coating, or application of something .... and if not, that's even worse. tobacco leaf should not look like that. 

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Gotta give it one thing, this topic certainly brings with it a lot of opinions! 😀

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2 hours ago, Squarehead said:

Bring me one industry where no cheating is going on

I wouldn't even call it cheating. Different producers are entitled to do different things. It's up to competing manufacturers to highlight their particular advantages and point out the flaws in their competition. 

As far as making general statements about leaf however, I take that as a blanket statement about what the producer wants you to think. Oily leaf being bad is an overly broad claim IMO. I think it's a clever way to state a half-truth while distracting from the inherent difficulty in producing attractive leaf in Nicaragua. 

2 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

 I am however 100% disputing that Drew Estate adds chemicals or perfumes to their tobaccos to adulterate them in any way

Purely out of curiosity, do you know if Drew Estate utilizes chemical fertilizers? I honestly don't know if most or all of NC producers are at this point.

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11 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Purely out of curiosity, do you know if Drew Estate utilizes chemical fertilizers? I honestly don't know if most or all of NC producers are at this point.

So this is not intended to be pedantic at all but to clarify: Drew Estate isn't a tobacco grower. They process tobacco, resell, and obviously manufacturer cigars.

All my discussions with tobacco growers in and around Esteli (and in the Dominican Republic) they don't use any chemicals for pest control, but I can't speak to whether or not they use chemical fertilizer. I'd be inclined to think they use inorganic fertilizers, because anything that could adulterate the flavor or properties of the tobacco would be avoided. 

But I can't say that with 100% confidence. I'll reach out to a couple of people I know in the NC industry with deep tobacco knowledge on the agri side and see what they say.

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I do recall being excited to try a *brand withheld* Tempus Lancero years ago after it got some awards. 5 mins in, my fingers were slimed with oily brown varnish. I dont even remember how the cigar tasted, just that brown paint coming off the wrapper. 

Needless to say, that was my last-ever cigar by that manufacturer. I mean, if that's what you have to do to make your cigars sell, fine but count me out. Bleccccch...

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2 minutes ago, ChanceSchmerr said:

my fingers were slimed with oily brown varnish. I dont even remember how the cigar tasted, just that brown paint coming off the wrapper. 

The only cigar that did that to me was the old (pre 2010-NC) La Perla Habana Black Pearl.    It was named "Black" for a reason and was a big joke on-line in NC discussion forums.

I have not tried the newer version.  🙂

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All commercial tobacco growers, world-wide (including Cuba) are using fertilizers.  Use of manure, compost, and other organic matter is used as far as they go before planting.  The “game” nowadays is to perfectly feed the plants with a fertilizer that has exactly the the right amounts of each nutrients soil is currently lacking and only what it is lacking.  The goal is to not over or under fertilize on the individual nutrient level.  Timing of applications is also a factor in good results.
 

To make these individual nutrients. A number of natural and synthetic processes are used.

  Cuba is catching up to the New World in being as good at it.  Where they suck most is having the stuff available to the farmers as they mostly import from Venezuela.

http://www.fao.org/3/y4801e/y4801e.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232729116_Nitrogen_Fertilization_for_Optimizing_the_Quality_and_Yield_of_Shade_Grown_Cuban_Cigar_Tobacco_Required_Nitrogen_Amounts_Application_Schedules_Adequate_Leaf_Nitrogen_Levels_and_Early_Season_Diagnostic

Some papers related to the methodology I described

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49 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Drew Estate isn't a tobacco grower. They process tobacco, resell, and obviously manufacturer cigars.

I know almost nothing about specific NC brands and who grows their own leaf, so I appreciate the info. 

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16 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I know almost nothing about specific NC brands and who grows their own leaf, so I appreciate the info. 

It has to do with the fact that both industries are so highly specialized. Even the processing and sorting of tobacco is really hard to do well. The vast majority of NC companies are not vertically integrated (do everything), because the amount of resources involved. Once you get to a medium-plus sized company you have to do processing, sorting, etc. because the scale of your manufacturing requires you to have better control over quality.

The bigger you are, the more tobacco you can purchase at one time which gives you the advantage. Growers like it obviously because they get paid for all their crop, and they're dealing with a company that is presumably stable and will be around for a while. Versus a small boutique company who maybe only wants a few hundred pounds of tobacco.

It's like the two sides of a coin in the NC world. You have these highly specialized tobacco growers and then you have the manufacturers. Most really experienced manufacturers will only have a basic knowledge of agriculture, because you're talking lifetimes and generations of tobacco experience to get really, really good.

All the agricultural guys I've had the fortune of long conversations with absolutely love it when people take an interest and ask questions. It's fascinating to me you can have two tobacco plates, right next to each other, but the farmer knows that plant A has different properties than plant B. Based on position, soil composition, sunlight, water runoff, you name it. 

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I don’t know of any NC companies that own the land and have direct employees farm it.  Could be out there, but I know of this arrangement for a few of the largest companies.  They kind of contract the farmer and also act as the bank and as investors.  They take care to ensure the farmer has all he needs and is set up for success.   (e.g. provide seedlings of the exact strain the company wants).  Then they buy the tobacco from the farmer.   Higher quality and larger yield means more money for the farmer.  

There are also farms that are independent and sell on the open market.   Of course, like any business, relationships matter.   Some independent farmers sell their entire crop to one company.

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6 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

I don’t know of any NC companies that own the land and have direct employees farm it.  Could be out there, but I know of this arrangement for a few of the largest companies.  They kind of contract the farmer and also act as the bank and as investors.  They take care to ensure the farmer has all he needs and is set up for success.   (e.g. provide seedlings of the exact strain the company wants).  Then they buy the tobacco from the farmer.   Higher quality and larger yield means more money for the farmer.  

There are also farms that are independent and sell on the open market.   Of course, like any business, relationships matter.   Some independent farmers sell their entire crop to one company.

Yeah it's not that common. Off the top of my head AGANORSA immediately comes to mind, Perdomo (although they'd have to get their wrapper outside of Nica), Davidoff / Camacho Cigars, Padron, edit: oh and of course from Casa Turrent who make the majority of San Andres wrappers using across the industry.

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3 hours ago, bundwallah said:

I will never forget the Drew Estate "slurry" video that was on the CA site years ago.  Many have seen it.  They were heating up the tar from the stems in a big wok style pot and dragging wrapper leaves through it. They boasted about how this gave their wrappers a consistent shade from box to box

So this answers the question of why peoples fingers get all covered in tar, at least with the slurry. At least its natural i guess. Still deceptive imo. No wonder they smell, smoke and taste so badly.

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Almost all of the NC companies use a combination of ways to get tobacco.   To meet the needs for their blends, they use their contracted tobacco, buy it on the open market, trade for it with other companies, etc.

NC companies are competitive with each other, but there is a strong sense of cooperation for the industry as a whole.   A lot of tobacco swapping going on.  

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I have smoked hundreds if not a thousand of Drew Estate’s cigars that use the stalk-cut habano wrapper that make up the Liga Privada line and some other cigars.   I’ve never had any staining or whatever else you guys have been describing.

One thing to note:   Nicaraguan tobacco is generally higher in nicotine than Cuban.  They breed and blend for it for many cigars.   Liga Privada is a high nicotine cigar.  I’ve not had every CC, but I’ve never had one as high in nicotine strength as a Liga.   Especially their highest nicotine ones.

Was in nicotine staining?   Like someone who smokes unfiltered cigarettes gets?

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7 minutes ago, SmokyFontaine said:

I mean, who is this "Padron" character?

This Padron character is the one who said that "There are some manufacturers that use some sort of oil to give their cigars the "oily sheen" on the wrapper," said Jorge. "I am not sure what type of oil it is or how it is applied. Needless to say that Padron Cigars would never even consider doing something like this. Much has been talked about oily wrappers and how consumers should look upon this as a positive attribute of a cigar. At Padron we look at oily wrappers as wrappers that have not been fermented completely."

 

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1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Purely out of curiosity, do you know if Drew Estate utilizes chemical fertilizers? I honestly don't know if most or all of NC producers are at this point.

So I have one manufacturer get back to me, still waiting on another but it's lengthy so incoming novel.

You've got three major categories of things you have to control. Pests / bugs (including tobacco beetles), nutrient delivery / soil composition, and mold / fungal control.

Pests / Bugs:

Tobacco, being from the nightshade family, is naturally resistant to most pests. That leaves you with primarily the concern about tobacco beetles. As the saying goes: where you have tobacco, you have beetles. You cannot get away from it. 

In Cuba, as I understand it, this is managed through the export process with giant freezers / refrigeration units at the time of export.

The non-Cuban world uses a crystal pesticide that is designed to draw all of the oxygen out of the environment and then become inert. Obviously it has to be inert because anything that can affect the flavor of the tobacco is going to be a non-starter.

In the non-Cuban world this is done periodically at almost every stage once the tobacco is done in the curing barn. So you bail it right out of the curing barn and you hit it with anti-beetle treatment by way of covering these giant multi-thousand pound bails and leave it to do it's work. Then the tobacco is sold to a company that will sort and classify and bail it, then it's treated again. Then a company will sort and classify themselves and either use it right away, or in the case of wrapper or some filler ferment it and bail it. Then you hit it again.

Once you roll cigars they go into a climate controlled escaparate / aging room and you hit it again, and then every 3 - 6 months or however long that particular manufacturer ages their cigars.

Obviously one of the things you can do operationally is have a really clean factory. Sweep constantly, mop constantly. It helps keep the beetles at bay, but ultimately they're a reality of tobacco.

Nutrient delivery:

This all comes down to economics. Poor farmers who can't afford inorganic 'chemicals' like nitrogen, phosphorous, etc. will till in bean crops or other common food crops in order to deliver nutrients to the soil. If you're established, you'll have an irrigation drip system and by way of that system you'll deliver whatever nutrients are required. Again nothing is used that can adulterate the tobacco, because it defeats the entire purpose of what you're trying to accomplish.

Fungal control:

This one was news to me; yes anti-fungal agents are absolutely used by most farmers. You can control the common types of mold and fungus by way of the varietal of seed you're using, and there is a complex agricultural science behind constantly developing new seed varietals. But anti-fungal agents are still used, again only ones that wouldn't be absorbed by the tobacco plant because you'll modify the properties of the tobacco.

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51 minutes ago, SmokyFontaine said:

The Surgeon is nailing it for me. Lol at the idea that NC manufacturers somehow haven't unlocked the mysteries of how to grow a crop, and that only the mystics of Cuba understand how to age and blend cigars. I mean, who is this "Padron" character? What would he know about making his cigars? I'll bet you get a box, and half or more just won't burn, are plugged, and need to rest for 5 years to hopefully lose ammonia because they were underfermented. 🙄

Taste is totally subjective of course. Personally, I would never choose just one country's product when so many have great tobacco. But to pretend like NCs somehow haven't figured out how to produce quality, natural products, while defending CC's, whose number 1 weakness is lack of consistency, is insane. Throwing around rumor and lies to try to discount one of them is just gross. Smoke what you like. 

23 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Hamlet astounded me by how many NC are treated be it paint or bethumed.

 

31 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

 

So Hamlet and Jorge Padron are saying this is happening along with a host of others. So is this just rumor or is it happening?

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18 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

NC companies are competitive with each other, but there is a strong sense of cooperation for the industry as a whole.   A lot of tobacco swapping going on.  

All the time. It's very beneficial for companies to trade filler, binder for other tobaccos they want. Especially if you have a pile of spare tobacco you can't incorporate into an existing or new line.

12 minutes ago, SmokyFontaine said:

The Surgeon is nailing it for me. Lol at the idea that NC manufacturers somehow haven't unlocked the mysteries of how to grow a crop, and that only the mystics of Cuba understand how to age and blend cigars. I mean, who is this "Padron" character? What would he know about making his cigars? I'll bet you get a box, and half or more just won't burn, are plugged, and need to rest for 5 years to hopefully lose ammonia because they were underfermented. 🙄

Thanks, I appreciate it. Like I've said previously I've been covering the industry for a decade now and I've lost count of the number of factories I've been in and the discussions I've had around tobacco. It's a constant process of learning and gaining knowledge for me.

The underfermented comment is funny to me because one of the major characteristics of underfermented tobacco can be a harsh bitterness often referred to as pepper that many people don't like. I know the people over at My Father used to chuckle when there was a growing trend among cigar smokers in the US towards underfermented blends. That isn't to say all pepper is a sign of underfermenting, there is a difference between a "spicy" characteristic like ASP tobacco for example, and a harsh bite from an incomplete or rushed fermentation process.

13 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

One thing to note:   Nicaraguan tobacco is generally higher in nicotine than Cuban.  They breed and blend for it for many cigars.   Liga Privada is a high nicotine cigar.  I’ve not had every CC, but I’ve never had one as high in nicotine strength as a Liga.   Especially their highest nicotine ones.

100%. I have it on good authority that Cuban tobacco is substantially lower in nicotine content than tobacco grown elsewhere.

8 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

This Padron character is the one who said that "There are some manufacturers that use some sort of oil to give their cigars the "oily sheen" on the wrapper," said Jorge. "I am not sure what type of oil it is or how it is applied. Needless to say that Padron Cigars would never even consider doing something like this. Much has been talked about oily wrappers and how consumers should look upon this as a positive attribute of a cigar. At Padron we look at oily wrappers as wrappers that have not been fermented completely."

In fairness: the quote comes from Gary Kolb over at Cigar Advisor from an article he wrote back in 2008. If we take the quote at face value, Jorge is commenting about a process he claims to have heard of, but Gary and Jorge provide no further details.

Bold claims typically should require bold evidence to substantiate them.

I know that well fermented Broadleaf is extremely oily and puts out significantly a more thick volume of smoke than say a Habano wrapper. Smoke a Tatuaje, a Broadleaf from Dunbarton Tobacco and Trust (Steve Saka), Foundation or Drew Estate as an example and they'll all do this.

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5 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

So Hamlet and Jorge Padron are saying this is happening along with a host of others. So is this just rumor or is it happening?

It happens, I addressed it in two sections in my long post on page 1. The claims of 'mineral oil' I find hard to believe. As I said in that post, I suspect the claims of mineral oil are referring to the process of crushing stems and applying that liquid to wrappers as a dye process. 

I also addressed the claims being levelled at Drew Estate in that post, and through first hand experience. 

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