Jorge Padron talks about dark and oily wrappers.

[Kevin48438]

Am i missing something?

[Puros Y Vino]

2 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

Am i missing something?

LOL. No. Fuzz is riffing on the "insert eating popcorn GIF". 

[Fuzz]

2 minutes ago, Deeg said:

Stay current, Baby.

No.

[PuroDan]

16 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

What Cubans do you enjoy if any?
 

I like almost all of them in some level or for some purpose.   Favorites are BFF, Monte 2, Lusi, PP2, Cohiba Lancero or esplendido for my bigger evening cigars, PD4, RASS, RyJ short church for midday, robusto-ish 1 hr cigars.   I’ve had very few LEs or REs.  I prefer to stock up and age my faves

Nice line up

[Deeg]

[Kevin48438]

If you like those, I’d bet you’d like the velvet rat in the Liga line.  Not infused or any of that shit.  It’s just has less (none) of the ligero tingle that over-stimulates the tip of the tongue and overwhelms the palate.   But if one is afraid they wont like a cigar, rarely does it go well.   If one has an open mind:  Drew Estate’s Hererra Esteli Brazilian Maduro in the lonsdale is a nice, flavorful, CC-level-of-nicotine cigar.  Whether you like the flavors or not?  🤷‍♂️

but it wont be painted, infused, or weird or any of that.

[PuroDan]

12 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

If you like those, I’d bet you’d like the velvet rat in the Liga line.  Not infused or any of that shit.  It’s just has less (none) of the ligero tingle that over-stimulates the tip of the tongue and overwhelms the palate.   But if one is afraid they wont like a cigar, rarely does it go well.   If one has an open mind:  Drew Estate’s Hererra Esteli Brazilian Maduro in the lonsdale is a nice, flavorful, CC-level-of-nicotine cigar.  Whether you like the flavors or not?  🤷‍♂️

but it wont be painted, infused, or weird or any of that.

I inhale a few puffs off every cigar along with slow retro hales on almost every puff. Its not a nicotine thing, its a taste thing. You have to admit Cuban cigars have a unique flavor profile. You either love/like em or you dont. I love em. Just me. Like i have said before. I try the top five NW cigars each year and to this day a party short is still better then all of em. So for 5 bucks i can have a better experience. Just my opinion

[Kevin48438]

1 minute ago, PuroDan said:

I inhale a few puffs off every cigar along with slow retro hales on almost every puff. Its not a nicotine thing, its a taste thing. You have to admit Cuban cigars have a unique flavor profile. You either love/like em or you dont. I love em. Just me

I’m a big fan of retrohale for most cigars.  I never fully inhale them though.  Nothing to do with nicotine, as i get it, if present, just smoking normally.  
Agree about the uniqueness of CCs.   More the textures and whole blend profile than any individual note.  
I love them also.   I also love Padron and most of Drew Estate’s non-infused offering.   Plenty of NC i’ll pass on as well.  

An example in where I take a similar position as you.   When i was seriously starting/pursuing in CCs about 5 years ago, i bought singles and samplers.   I have had one Punch.  A Punch Punch.  One of the worst tasting cigars ever.  Maybe a bad one?  🤷🏻‍♂️   Didnt matter.  I had boxes of BFF and RASS as I had already gotten to those. 

My point in the thread was to pursue: lets call a spade a spade, but lets not defame any company as they get lumped in with other NC bad actors.  Turned out all it was is that someone got some of the infusing stuff on their hands.   I can see it happening.  Don’t really even see it as defamatory.  
 

 

[Fuzz]

54 minutes ago, Deeg said:

[PuroDan]

11 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

I’m a big fan of retrohale for most cigars.  I never fully inhale them though.  Nothing to do with nicotine, as i get it, if present, just smoking normally.  
Agree about the uniqueness of CCs.   More the textures and whole blend profile than any individual note.  
I love them also.   I also love Padron and most of Drew Estate’s non-infused offering.   Plenty of NC i’ll pass on as well.  

An example in where I take a similar position as you.   When i was seriously starting/pursuing in CCs about 5 years ago, i bought singles and samplers.   I have had one Punch.  A Punch Punch.  One of the worst tasting cigars ever.  Maybe a bad one?  🤷🏻‍♂️   Didnt matter.  I had boxes of BFF and RASS as I had already gotten to those. 

My point in the thread was to pursue: lets call a spade a spade, but lets not defame any company as they get lumped in with other NC bad actors.  Turned out all it was is that someone got some of the infusing stuff on their hands.   I can see it happening.  Don’t really even see it as defamatory.  
 

 

Sounds fair/good to me

[Pharmacovigilant]

“Shiny wrappers are attractive to the American eye because we, as Americans, love big shiny things.”

Lol!

[Fosgate]

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

 

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

100%. I have it on good authority that Cuban tobacco is substantially lower in nicotine content than tobacco grown elsewhere.

Yes, I've seen this claimed in many old cigar books consistently. I would presume it was looked into a long tome ago.

4 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

I know that well fermented Broadleaf is extremely oily and puts out significantly a more thick volume of smoke than say a Habano wrapper.

Yes, that's my only issue with what was said in that article. I take issue with this claim that oily wrappers in general are inherently flawed or inferior. Instead of saying hey, Nicaraguan wrappers aren't very oily so watch out for ones that are as they're probably doctored we get doubt cast on all oily wrappers. Perhaps the source was referring to strictly Nicaraguan wrappers which is a perfectly fine statement but that wasn't clear. Wouldn't be the first time a NC producer denigrated all competing products.

Cuban, Dominican and Sumatra wrappers frequently have a nice sheen to them and there's obviously nothing wrong with them. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

Btw additional information regarding the beetle fumigation:

Apparently it's commonplace in agriculture to use 'Phostoxin Tablets', which generates Phosphine gas which kills all the insects. The Phosphine gas doesn't interact with any sort of plant material including grains, rices, tobacco and the like.

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Kevin48438 said:

claim 2:  This love of chemicals extends to fertilization and farming techniques.  NC use chem fertilizers, CC all natural.

Response: nope, they both use a combo.  

Do we know this for a fact? The articles and sources you provided don't specify what tobacco is grown using chemical fertilizers. Could be cigarette tobacco or non-premium cigars. Not to mention how are they getting this info?  

I've read many articles over the years including this one that strongly suggests that many of the Vuelta Abajo growers have embraced totally organic. I don't think it's in dispute than chemical fertilizers were virtually impossible to come by in Cuba after the Soviet collapse so, they certainly did have a significant period of organic only. 

[mprach024]

Honestly, this is a fascinating discussion, and what I’m learning with tobacco just like most farmed goods, there’s a lot of ways to do it.

At the same time, do we really care what an NC producer says makes his cigars better?  Good for him, good for his cigars if he found a better formula for his product.  

That doesn’t necessarily have to apply to CCs, or all CCs, or even other NCs.  Opus X can be some of the oiliest cigars in the world, they seem to be doing alright.  Good for Padron, good for Fuentes.  I think we all have had plenty of wrappers with sheen and dull wrappers in CCs, I think we all probably agree that with CCs on average the better looking wrapper leads to better smokes.  Again....on average, we’ve all had the examples where a dull box surprised us, or an oily box was fireproof.  If it’s bad farming/curing that makes better smokes....then I ask....is it really bad farming?

[NSXCIGAR]

25 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

do we really care what an NC producer says makes his cigars better?  Good for him, good for his cigars if he found a better formula for his product.  

Promoting or talking up your products is very different than denigrating by implication all of your competition. It's one thing to say you have the best wrappers. It's another to say all wrappers that might be different are flawed or doctored.

I've seen NC producers do similar things many times, and it should be called out every time. It's irresponsible. People start getting ideas. Oily wrapper = funny business so avoid any and all oily wrappers. Then we'll get knuckleheads that come on here and say "CC wrappers have such a nice sheen b/c they add oil" and that's why NCs are way better and CCs are overrated and unnatural.

[mprach024]

6 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Promoting or talking up your products is very different than denigrating by implication all of your competition. It's one thing to say you have the best wrappers. It's another to say all wrappers that might be different are flawed or doctored.

I've seen NC producers do similar things many times, and it should be called out every time. It's irresponsible. People start getting ideas. Oily wrapper = funny business so avoid any and all oily wrappers. Then we'll get knuckleheads that come on here and say "CC wrappers have such a nice sheen b/c they add oil" and that's why NCs are way better and CCs are overrated and unnatural.

I guess I just fail to see why I should care what some dude is saying.  Knuckleheads be knuckleheads, let them think whatever they want.  It’s not my life mission to find every product slinger who throws fud and educate the world.  I think he’s wrong in regards to CCs, and plenty of other examples, doesn’t mean he’s wrong for his own product.  To his defense Padrons are not oily, in fact often very toothy and thick wrappers.  If he believes that makes his product better....fine....good luck to him.  Just like some wine growers think biodynamic farming leads to better wines, and others don’t.  Fine....whatever....who cares? lol.  

[El Presidente]

I would love a long lunch with Jorge Padron. How could you not respect what they have achieved and the way that they have conducted themselves as ambassadors for our great hobby/industry.  I have been in the game for coming on 25 years and I am yet to hear a negative word about them. Kudos. 

 

 

[nKostyan]

If we are already talking about watering tobacco bushes and fertilizers, we must remember that tobacco is grown in Cuba for a very long time, before the appearance of mineral fertilizers. It should also be remembered that tobacco cultivation in the NC regions began to develop actively only after the embargo.
How can Cuba do without fertilizers?
Read the article:

The main task of local tobacco growers is to make sure that tobacco gets the most out of what the land can give it.
The roots of an adult tobacco bush reach more than one meter in length. As a rule, they creep along the surface of the earth – the nutrients contained in the upper layer of the soil are quite enough for the normal life of the plant. But in order for tobacco to become delicious and fragrant, it needs much more different chemical components. In the Vuelta Abajo region, there are a lot of such components, but they are hidden at a depth of twenty centimeters to one and a half meters. In order to make the tobacco roots go down, rather than creep along the surface, Cuban tobacco growers almost never water their plantations - in the absence of rain, the bushes are forced to look for alternative sources of moisture, and find them at depth: underground streams running directly under the Vuelta Abajo region. They are one of the main secrets of the legendary terroir. The roots of the plant feel the water and almost immediately rush to it. Along the way they pass through four completely different layers of soil, each of which contributes to the organoleptics of Cuban tobacco:

1-The topsoil of the Vuelta Abajo is sandstone mixed with humus and organic compounds, the remains of dead plants and roots. It is thin, about eighteen centimeters, but fertile enough to provide young plants with all the necessary nutrients for growth.

2-The next layer, which occupies twenty-five centimeters – is pure yellow sand. It contains a large amount of iron and aluminum. Iron plays a crucial role in the process of photosynthesis and is necessary for plants to form chlorophyll. Both upper layers of the soil are rich in nitrogen-containing substances. They directly affect the amount of nicotine in tobacco, as well as its taste and aroma. But do not think that nitrogen in the soil must necessarily be very much – its excess can have a negative impact on tobacco and worsen its combustible properties. It is known that the leaves of ligero (the uppermost on the bush) have the greatest strength and the most expressive taste, but they burn much worse than the leaves of seco (middle) and volado (lower). This is because it is in the upper part of the bush that the largest nitrogen reserves are located.

3-Clay-sand, or loamy layer. It is the most extensive-its depth can be up to eighty centimeters. Loose loamy soils are rich in a variety of organic compounds, minerals, and trace elements such as potassium and phosphorus. Potassium oxide is necessary to give tobacco elasticity and good combustible properties; in addition, it, like nitrogen, is a component of many aromatic compounds. Phosphorus oxide plays an important role in the metabolism of the tobacco bush and affects how the plant will absorb all other useful substances.

4-At a depth of more than a meter, the sand disappears, giving way to soft clay soil. This layer is quite thin – as a rule, its thickness does not exceed twenty – five centimeters, but clay is a very fertile environment-it contains a huge number of various chemical elements and compounds. Clay contains almost all the substances necessary for the nutrition, growth and development of tobacco.

The land of the Vuelta Abajo region is loose and light, so it is quite easy for tobacco roots to wade through its thickness. It is also important that such a structure provides natural drainage, allowing moisture from the atmosphere and vapors coming from underground currents to freely circulate in the soil. Together with the optimal pH level, ranging between 5.5 and 6.5, this creates optimal conditions for root growth – they absorb the maximum possible amount of minerals, trace elements and nutrients.

After passing through all the layers of soil and collecting the maximum amount of useful substances, the roots of the tobacco bush finally reach their cherished goal – the limestone karsts of the Jurassic period, where the streams formed as a result of the melting of glaciers on the tops of the Cordelera de los Organos mountain range run.
But it is noteworthy that the underground water flows do not pass under all the lands of the Vuelta Abajo, so two plantations located just across the road can produce tobacco of completely different quality. However, in fairness, it is worth noting that the reasons for such a striking difference can be not only underground currents, but also such geographical and climatic factors as the thickness of the fertile layer, the proportions of the content of various substances in the soil, the landscape or proximity to the sea.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, mprach024 said:

 It’s not my life mission to find every product slinger who throws fud and educate the world.  I think he’s wrong in regards to CCs, and plenty of other examples, doesn’t mean he’s wrong for his own product.

Nor is it mine, but it got posted for discussion here as an opinion from an industry leader, so I offered my perspective on that opinion. You're here too. 

And I totally agree, do what you want to your own products. Boast and promote away. I just felt this statement was overly broad and, as worded, was an indirect attempt to denigrate competing products. 

 

[Fuzz]

8 hours ago, Fosgate said:

 

[Kevin48438]

It seems that a lot of words are being put in Pardon’s mouth in an effort to find the source of all malfeasance in the cigar industry.  An answer to a question (in an edited piece) being strained to cover way more ground than it should.  He was specifically talking about maduro, broadleaf wrapper.  Not any other.   He was not talking about any widespread use or any top company doing such a thing.  The few small companies that may being doing some oiling are no competition for him.  I see zero mention of CCs.

The word he used to describe oily, maduro, broadleaf wrappers is “underfermented.”   Which means there is potential to ferment more.   That is all it means.   It is not a qualitative statement.   Consumers prefer cigars all along the spectrum of the fermentation process.   Brown (eg colorado) cigar wrappers are the same wrappers that have not been allowed to fully ferment.   When they do, they turn black (maduro).   Maduro = mature.  That is the direct translation and a good representation of what is happening.  Like a steak can be cooked to many levels to suit preference. (Medium-rare for me).   Or like spirits being blended from numerous barrels (of various ages) to achieve the flavor profile that represents the brand.

The point Padron was making is to not judge a cigar by it’s cover.  Shininess is not an indicator of flavor or performance capability.  His quite non-shiny ones are his example.

[Tstew75]

13 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Ok...

I didn't mean literally, but thanks 😂

[Nino]

18 hours ago, Kevin48438 said:

All commercial tobacco growers, world-wide (including Cuba) are using fertilizers.  Use of manure, compost, and other organic matter is used as far as they go before planting.  The “game” nowadays is to perfectly feed the plants with a fertilizer that has exactly the the right amounts of each nutrients soil is currently lacking and only what it is lacking.  The goal is to not over or under fertilize on the individual nutrient level.  Timing of applications is also a factor in good results.
 

To make these individual nutrients. A number of natural and synthetic processes are used.

  Cuba is catching up to the New World in being as good at it.  Where they suck most is having the stuff available to the farmers as they mostly import from Venezuela.

http://www.fao.org/3/y4801e/y4801e.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232729116_Nitrogen_Fertilization_for_Optimizing_the_Quality_and_Yield_of_Shade_Grown_Cuban_Cigar_Tobacco_Required_Nitrogen_Amounts_Application_Schedules_Adequate_Leaf_Nitrogen_Levels_and_Early_Season_Diagnostic

Some papers related to the methodology I described

Correct - Cuba imports fertilizer from Venezuela and I remember there was a small fiasco years ago as they lost a decent percentage of their harvest due to bad fertilizer.