Jorge Padron talks about dark and oily wrappers.

[Puros Y Vino]

Given the discussion on farming. This might be of interest. From 1882.

https://archive.org/details/tobaccocuringres00phil

[MrBirdman]

20 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Mineral oil would cause a wrapper not to to burn,

Not taking a side on this debate, but I don’t see how mineral oil would impede burning. It’s combustible well below the temps a cigar burns at.

Also it’s possible that other oils could be used - there are lots of food-grade oils, some of which are nearly odorless. But it would be tough to apply any oil uniformly without staining the wrapper. Spraying a fine aerosol could work, but that would be hard to hide because anyone nearby would need to wear a mask. 

[NSXCIGAR]

9 hours ago, Kevin48438 said:

It seems that a lot of words are being put in Pardon’s mouth in an effort to find the source of all malfeasance in the cigar industry.  An answer to a question (in an edited piece) being strained to cover way more ground than it should.  He was specifically talking about maduro, broadleaf wrapper.

Can you source that? I apologize if it's been posted and I missed it. I didn't see any unedited article posted. If the words in the OP are incorrect, out of context or edited I think it should be addressed. As worded, the comments in the OP do seem overly broad. 

 

6 hours ago, nino said:

Cuba imports fertilizer from Venezuela and I remember there was a small fiasco years ago as they lost a decent percentage of their harvest due to bad fertilizer.

Ha, you'd think Cuba would know how unreliable doing business with a socialist regime would be. 

Do we know if they'd been using chemical fertilizers on premium tobacco? I'd still like to know the answer to that as I've been under the impression they have not since at least the early 90s. I haven't heard of any vegueros acknowledging it.

[Nino]

1 minute ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Ha, you'd think Cuba would know how unreliable doing business with a socialist regime would be. 

Do we know if they'd been using chemical fertilizers on premium tobacco? I'd still like to know the answer to that as I've been under the impression they have not since at least the early 90s. I haven't heard of any vegueros acknowledging it.

Well, you tend to go for the lowest price and suffer the consequences later ....

No idea if it was chemical, I guess so, but it was used in the Vuelta Abajo area and I have it from some prominent vegueros there in San Luis and San Juan.

[Bijan]

I find some of this funny. Is the objection specifically to the claim of mineral oil? Does it matter if it's some kind of tobacco derived sludge/oil they are using?

It's like a claim that a suspect beat someone with a lead pipe, and then saying that's ridiculous it was a copper pipe, lead is too heavy 😂

[mprach024]

13 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

You're here too. 

😂 true

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

I find some of this funny. Is the objection specifically to the claim of mineral oil?

Unusual there is a thread with two separate conversations, one of which I'm 100% a non-participant in, nor do I understand what's happening.

[bassistheplace]

is this because of Covid??

[Cigar Surgeon]

5 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Can you source that? I apologize if it's been posted and I missed it. I didn't see any unedited article posted. If the words in the OP are incorrect, out of context or edited I think it should be addressed. As worded, the comments in the OP do seem overly broad.

Yes, I cited it in a lengthy post that was removed. Here it is again for reference:

From Gary Kolb at Cigar Advisor, 2008.

 

5 hours ago, Bijan said:

I find some of this funny. Is the objection specifically to the claim of mineral oil? Does it matter if it's some kind of tobacco derived sludge/oil they are using?

It's like a claim that a suspect beat someone with a lead pipe, and then saying that's ridiculous it was a copper pipe, lead is too heavy 😂

On page 1 alone there were claims of mineral oil, raisin juice, chemicals...

But I'll answer your question with a question of my own:

Why do some people feel the need to demonize something they don't like? Why isn't it enough to just say: "Hey I don't like this thing." and move on? 

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

On page 1 alone there were claims of mineral oil, raisin juice, chemicals...

But I'll answer your question with a question of my own:

Why do some people feel the need to demonize something they don't like? Why isn't it enough to just say: "Hey I don't like this thing." and move on? 

That's fair. But this whole thread started from that quote saying that certain oily wrappers are not naturally that way and are the result of doctoring of potentially unfermented or under-fermented wrappers.

Then you gave a long informative post about how the wrappers need to be fermented 2-3 years to look right naturally and if not you listed at least 3 ways they are doctored to look dark and oily.

That just seemed funny to me. No disparagement meant to anyone or anything.

[Jimmy_jack]

To answer “what do people oppose “

 

I am opposed to anything being added to the tobacco period. Ferment it, blend it, wrap it and age it...period. 
 

if I want additives, natural or not, I’ll buy something else. When I smoke a hand rolled premium cigar, Cuban or new world, I want what I described. That’s it. 
 

[PuroDan]

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Why do some people feel the need to demonize something they don't like? Why isn't it enough to just say: "Hey I don't like this thing." and move on? 

So i will answer your question with my question now. My question is how is it possible for someone to demonize an inanimate object? Why does this bother you so much? There is nothing for you to gain or lose right?  People have opinions and can voice them freely. Just because you feel they should voice their opinion a certain way, doesn't mean they are obligated to listen. We should never suppress opinions/speech that doesnt actually hurt somebody.

[El Presidente]

21 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

So i will answer your question with my question now. My question is how is it possible for someone to demonize an inanimate object? Why does this bother you so much? There is nothing for you to gain or lose right?  People have opinions and can voice them freely. Just because you feel they should voice their opinion a certain way, doesn't mean they are obligated to listen. We should never suppress opinions/speech that doesnt actually hurt somebody.

Let me flip that around 

Opinion is fine, but isn't publicly posted opinion subject to factual challenge?

As long as the challenge is to the facts purportedly raised and not aimed at the individual, it is game on for the benefit of all. 

[PuroDan]

2 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Let me flip that around 

Opinion is fine, but isn't publicly posted opinion is subject to factual challenge?

As long as the challenge is to the facts purportedly raised and not aimed at the individual, it is game on for the benefit of all. 

Sounds good to me.

[El Presidente]

1 minute ago, PuroDan said:

Sounds good to me.

Good to hear! I have had a few drinks after the review with Ken  

[El Presidente]

Just now, PuroDan said:

Hamlet astounded me by how many NC are treated be it paint or bethumed.

You mean like this?

Challenge away!

You have to go through an old RTDA show (now ICPCR) and smoke through a ton of painted/doctored NC on the floor to see your fingers and lips black. 

Whole new world 

If it works for them, great. I struggle with most of it. 

[PuroDan]

Just now, El Presidente said:

Challenge away!

You have to go through an old RTDA show (now ICPCR) and smoke through a ton of painted/doctored NC on the floor to see your fingers and lips black. 

Whole new world 

If it works for them, great. I struggle with most of it. 

It doesnt work for me as i like my fingers and lips the color they are now. Exactly what i was looking for. Thanks

[Bijan]

As much as I've avoided commenting on the facts of the matter due to lack of knowledge of this world, I find it weird that Padron is throwing shade about skipping steps, when their entry level cigars are exactly the same price in maduro and non maduro wrapper (the one time I bought a box both were reasonably and identically priced, I didn't end up getting the box in the end but that's another story). And from what it seems it takes 2.5 to 3 years of fermenting to get a maduro wrapper naturally so you'd expect a premium. 🤔

Edit: To be fair I'm far from an expert in maduro wrappers, and I'm probably missing the difference between these maduro processed wrappers and dark wrappers in general which are also called maduro. Confusinig...

[Cigar Surgeon]

57 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

So i will answer your question with my question now. My question is how is it possible for someone to demonize an inanimate object? Why does this bother you so much? There is nothing for you to gain or lose right?  People have opinions and can voice them freely. Just because you feel they should voice their opinion a certain way, doesn't mean they are obligated to listen. We should never suppress opinions/speech that doesnt actually hurt somebody.

People demonize things all the time, it's become quite the rage. You can't just not like something, there has to be something wrong with it that justifies you not liking it.

People have many opinions and can voice them freely. And people can challenge those opinions just as freely.

As far as I can tell no one's free speech has been suppressed here, has it?

[PuroDan]

13 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

People demonize things all the time, it's become quite the rage. You can't just not like something, there has to be something wrong with it that justifies you not liking it.

Actually i can just not like it and dont have to justify it. But i will in this case for your benefit. I dont like liga privada cigars because they taste like chemicals. I love Partagas 898 because they taste very, very good. Sweet cream, sourdough, paprika and a tad bit of pepper. Its like eating a five star meal that is perfectly seasoned with natural ingredients.

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, PuroDan said:

Actually i can just not like it and dont have to justify it. But i will in this case for your benefit. I dont like liga privada cigars because they taste like chemicals. I love Partagas 898 because they taste very, very good.

I think he meant that people in general these days feel like they can't just not like things, and feel the need to demonize them to justify their dislike. Not that you specifically can't just not like something.

[PuroDan]

2 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I think he meant that people in general these days feel like they can't just not like things, and feel the need to demonize them to justify their dislike. Not that you specifically can't just not like something.

Cool. Reason i dont like liga privada is because it has a chemical taste

[Bijan]

Also funny about how Drew Estate a cigar producer that makes about half their total sales off of cigars that are definitely artificially perfumed, has people tasting perfume in their other cigars.

Again I'm not trying to throw shade, but it is odd that they are so open about their other production and "only 4 people on earth" know the secret of acid cigars production methods.

I'm not saying it's not all above board, but you can't blame people for wondering.

https://www.newair.com/blogs/learn/what-are-acid-cigars

[PuroDan]

43 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

People demonize things all the time, it's become quite the rage

 I dont think the cigar cares much. If its the cigar that is being demonized why do people allow it to affect them? I can understand how it would be bad for business for drew estate though.

 

30 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Also funny about how Drew Estate a cigar producer that makes about half their total sales off of cigars that are definitely artificially perfumed, has people tasting perfume in their other cigars.

Again I'm not trying to throw shade, but it is odd that they are so open about their other production and "only 4 people on earth" know the secret of acid cigars production methods.

I'm not saying it's not all above board, but you can't blame people for wondering.

https://www.newair.com/blogs/learn/what-are-acid-cigars

You learn something new every day. I had no idea. Thanks Bijan!

 

47 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

People have many opinions and can voice them freely. And people can challenge those opinions just as freely.

As far as I can tell no one's free speech has been suppressed here, has it?

I agree here and misunderstood one of your posts.

[NSXCIGAR]

7 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Yes, I cited it in a lengthy post that was removed. Here it is again for reference:

From Gary Kolb at Cigar Advisor, 2008.

So, my conclusion after reading it is that these are indeed overly broad statements by either Padron or the author. The title is "The Truth About Oily Cigars," not "The Truth About Oily Nicaraguan Maduro Cigars."

The reader of this article could reasonably think the statements apply to any and all oily wrappers from any country. I'll give Padron the benefit of the doubt as I think he may have been specifically referring to Nicaraguan Maduro or some other very specific product. But the article as worded I take issue with. 

I also find this statement quite interesting:

Additionally, as Jorge points out above, during the fermentation process, the trick is to remove as much oil from the wrapper leaf as possible without [entirely] drying it out.

This suggests the removal of oils is the goal with the ideal processing being the result. It seems this is a little backwards based on Padron's statements. Proper processing should be the goal with the result being the ideal oil content (in this case, zero), not starting with the goal of simply removing oils.