Why are NC cigars almost all maduro/oscuro?

[RedLantern]

This is something I didn't even really notice until I started to get more into CC, but when I look at the NC cigars I have, they are all on the very dark wrapper end of the spectrum. Whereas, cuban cigars, a maduro wrapper is an outlier, most are either claro, colorado, or rosado. Why is this - why are there so few of the lighter wrappers in NC cigars?

[nKostyan]

Because the smokers purchase such quantities of Maduro.

If we talk about CC, CCC - Claro/Claro-Colorado/Colorado has historically been considered a high standard. Dark wrappers were used for cheap cigars. Nor was the temperature fermentation of tobacco used, which gives color and flavor to the Cuban Maduro.

[mprach024]

13 minutes ago, RedLantern said:

This is something I didn't even really notice until I started to get more into CC, but when I look at the NC cigars I have, they are all on the very dark wrapper end of the spectrum. Whereas, cuban cigars, a maduro wrapper is an outlier, most are either claro, colorado, or rosado. Why is this - why are there so few of the lighter wrappers in NC cigars?

Darker....no darker still!! .....fuller...the fullest....bigger ring gauges....no - so big I can’t fit in my mouth....more explosive.....crazier....

’Merica🇺🇸, it’s what we want, it’s what we do

[Kaptain Karl]

It could have to do with Connecticut shade wrappers having the reputation of being flavorless and NC smokers assuming claro-Colorado wrappers are Connecticut shade and only darker wrappers are flavorful. 

[Bijan]

I've seen at least a few like Padron where there are maduro and natural/habano versions of the same cigar for the same price. Makes me think there's a cheap process they use to darken the wrappers. Some of this did come up in a recent thread about oily wrappers.

 

 

[nKostyan]

About Padron Maduro:
- budget lines undoubtedly have a painted leaf
- premium cigars have a natural Maduro.
You will notice that the premium Padron madiro wrapper is very fragile, it crumbles even when carefully handled with a cigar. This is a sign that it has passed the classic temperature fermentation procedure

[SmokyFontaine]

31 minutes ago, nKostyan said:

About Padron Maduro:
- budget lines undoubtedly have a painted leaf
- premium cigars have a natural Maduro.
You will notice that the premium Padron madiro wrapper is very fragile, it crumbles even when carefully handled with a cigar. This is a sign that it has passed the classic temperature fermentation procedure

You're definitely one of the most experienced voices here, but with all due respect...Padron isn't painting wrappers on any line. One of my favorite cigars is a 1964 Padron Principe Maduro. The thick, sandpaper-like wrapper feels darn near industrial. Fuente Anejos (maduro), same thing. 

Maybe it's my preference, but I have several hundred NC's, and I doubt 15% of them are maduro. My understanding (and I could totally be wrong) is that with maduro meaning "ripe", they are fermented longer- a luxury NCs have. In Cuba there are far more pressures to go farm to table so leaves fermenting longer is less common. Again, from what I've read, this is a big reason why Habanos have so few maduros. But a vast majority of NC cigars are natural wrapper.

[Bijan]

1 hour ago, SmokyFontaine said:

You're definitely one of the most experienced voices here, but with all due respect...Padron isn't painting wrappers on any line. One of my favorite cigars is a 1964 Padron Principe Maduro. The thick, sandpaper-like wrapper feels darn near industrial. Fuente Anejos (maduro), same thing. 

Maybe it's my preference, but I have several hundred NC's, and I doubt 15% of them are maduro. My understanding (and I could totally be wrong) is that with maduro meaning "ripe", they are fermented longer- a luxury NCs have. In Cuba there are far more pressures to go farm to table so leaves fermenting longer is less common. Again, from what I've read, this is a big reason why Habanos have so few maduros. But a vast majority of NC cigars are natural wrapper.

Then why is there no premium charged on their entry level cigars for maduro wrappers? How is it that they do the 2.5-3 years of fermenting of maduro wrappers for free?

Edit: Also isn't 1964 line one of their premium lines which according to @nKostyan wouldn't be painted?

 

Again here's the recent thread where @Cigar Surgeon explains the process of fermenting maduro wrappers, and the several ways to "fake" the results quicker (wrapper cooking, wrapper painting, industrialized painting/madur-o-matic).

 

[nKostyan]

You're definitely one of the most experienced voices here, but with all due respect...Padron isn't painting wrappers on any line. One of my favorite cigars is a 1964 Padron Principe Maduro. The thick, sandpaper-like wrapper feels darn near industrial. Fuente Anejos (maduro), same thing. 
Maybe it's my preference, but I have several hundred NC's, and I doubt 15% of them are maduro. My understanding (and I could totally be wrong) is that with maduro meaning "ripe", they are fermented longer- a luxury NCs have. In Cuba there are far more pressures to go farm to table so leaves fermenting longer is less common. Again, from what I've read, this is a big reason why Habanos have so few maduros. But a vast majority of NC cigars are natural wrapper.

Specifically, the Maduro 3000 has complaints about finger staining when smoking.

I honestly admit that when I smoked, used a white napkin, I could not find the paint on the wrapper wet with saliva.

Another sign of natural Maduro is the sweet taste. If you smoke Maduro and do not feel the sweetness of the smoke, there is a high probability that it is colored

[SmokyFontaine]

3 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Then why is there no premium charged on their entry level cigars for maduro wrappers? How is it that they do the 2.5-3 years of fermenting of maduro wrappers for free?

Edit: Also isn't 1964 line one of their premium lines which according to @nKostyan wouldn't be painted?

There is a step up from 26's and 64's, so I can't speak to nKostyan's grouping, but with a large supplier like Padron, they farm a region, harvest their crop and ferment it according to their recipe. It's a Nicaraguan puro. A robusto (natural or maduro) of their base line (the "thousand series" is like $6-7 bucks. Probably closer to $10 in a shop. There are a number of Cuban Robustos that are right around $7. So those $7 cigars are...Cuban loss leaders? The economics don't make any sense. 

I don't wander too far from the well known NC brands like Padron, Fuente, Oliva, My Father, so I think it's probable there's some weird crap out there. But the prominent, respected brands are as legitimate as it gets. I don't really understand this new infatuation with making baseless claims about NCs here. It's weird. I love great cigars. I've had phenomenal NCs and CCs. I've also had absolute turds from both origins. 

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, SmokyFontaine said:

There is a step up from 26's and 64's, so I can't speak to nKostyan's grouping, but with a large supplier like Padron, they farm a region, harvest their crop and ferment it according to their recipe. It's a Nicaraguan puro. A robusto (natural or maduro) of their base line (the "thousand series" is like $6-7 bucks. Probably closer to $10 in a shop. There are a number of Cuban Robustos that are right around $7. So those $7 cigars are...Cuban loss leaders? The economics don't make any sense. 

I don't wander too far from the well known NC brands like Padron, Fuente, Oliva, My Father, so I think it's probable there's some weird crap out there. But the prominent, respected brands are as legitimate as it gets. I don't really understand this new infatuation with making baseless claims about NCs here. It's weird. I love great cigars. I've had phenomenal NCs and CCs. I've also had absolute turds from both origins. 

I look at it this way. According to @Cigar Surgeon fermenting maduro wrappers is a long and labour intensive process. If Cuba can't do it without charging a significant premium (Partagas Maduro, Cohiba Maduro, etc.), I don't see how the NC producers can do it in a $5 cigar for free (some of the padron base line that comes in maduro and natural at the same price).

[nKostyan]

By the way, in another topic, mentioned the technology of scalding the wrappers, when it acquires the color Maduro in a short time. There is no paint, but there is no fermentation, which gives the taste of Maduro. This technology is also used by the creators of the Cuban Maduro fakes.

[Fosgate]

I still smoke NC's often as support to my local cigar lounge when I go smoke there. Personally I felt when I first started smoking cigars I had a preference for Maduro wrappers as the flavor of those cigars was like choclolate and rich tobacco without that full flavor and nicotine punch combined. Brickhouse Might Mighty Maduro, CAO Brazilla, Macanudo  vintage 1997,  to hicher priced Cohiba Black and others. As I looked toward what veteran smokers were pulling on though I noticed Arturo Fuente, RYJ, Davidoff etc being smoked with the Claro to Colorado wrappers. Where I don't recall alot of dark wrapper Maduro or Oscuro wrappers back then I look around and notice more manufacturers now have the darker wrappers in their linup. In my opinion I agree with this CA article based on what I have seen. https://www.cigaraficionado.com/article/that-old-black-magic-8470

[mprach024]

1 hour ago, nKostyan said:

 

Specifically, the Maduro 3000 has complaints about finger staining when smoking.

I honestly admit that when I smoked, used a white napkin, I could not find the paint on the wrapper wet with saliva.

Another sign of natural Maduro is the sweet taste. If you smoke Maduro and do not feel the sweetness of the smoke, there is a high probability that it is colored

 

I’ve smoked a few thousand padron 4000s, was my golf course cigar for ages.  Never in my life have I seen “paint” come off.  Nor are they fragile.  The 64s have wrappers like tanks, thick solid and toothy, same with 26.  I’d say the padrons are a much much more durable stick than most Cubans.  I can’t speak to padron maduro process, but in the 4000s it ain’t paint.  There’s a significant flavor profile difference to the maduro than the natural.  One that you would expect from maduro leaf.  Why is the price same?  No idea.

 

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

I look at it this way. According to @Cigar Surgeon fermenting maduro wrappers is a long and labour intensive process. If Cuba can't do it without charging a significant premium (Partagas Maduro, Cohiba Maduro, etc.), I don't see how the NC producers can do it in a $5 cigar for free (some of the padron base line that comes in maduro and natural at the same price).

In Padrons even the 64s and 26s, prices are the same for natural and maduro.  

 

1 hour ago, nKostyan said:

By the way, in another topic, mentioned the technology of scalding the wrappers, when it acquires the color Maduro in a short time. There is no paint, but there is no fermentation, which gives the taste of Maduro. This technology is also used by the creators of the Cuban Maduro fakes.

This could very well be how padron does it.  They definitely have the flavors.  I have no idea how, I just liked how they tasted.

[nKostyan]

48 minutes ago, SmokyFontaine said:

I don't really understand this new infatuation with making baseless claims about NCs here. It's weird. I love great cigars.

No surprise there:
- cats vs dogs
- Mercedes vs BMW
- CC vs NC
- etc.
😆

[Bijan]

17 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

I’ve smoked a few thousand padron 4000s, was my golf course cigar for ages.  Never in my life have I seen “paint” come off.  Nor are they fragile.  The 64s have wrappers like tanks, thick solid and toothy, same with 26.  I’d say the padrons are a much much more durable stick than most Cubans.  I can’t speak to padron maduro process, but in the 4000s it ain’t paint.  There’s a significant flavor profile difference to the maduro than the natural.  One that you would expect from maduro leaf.  Why is the price same?  No idea.

The paint isn't spray paint. According to that other thread it's derived from boiled tobacco stems.

The other method is just cooking the wrappers.

You all have more experience with NCs so I'll leave it to you.

But the same price for different amount of labour makes me think there is not a different amount of labour as NC producers and consumers are savy capitalist system participants. I'm not inclined to think Cuba is acting more economically rational.

 

13 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

In Padrons even the 64s and 26s, prices are the same for natural and maduro.  

I could see a producer absorbing production cost differences in an expensive premium product with larger margins. It just seems harder to believe in the $5-$7 cigar range.

[mprach024]

3 minutes ago, Bijan said:

The paint isn't spray paint. According to that other thread it's derived from boiled tobacco stems.

The other method is just cooking the wrappers.

You all have more experience with NCs so I'll leave it to you.

But the same price for different amount of labour makes me think there is not a different amount of labour as NC producers and consumers are savy capitalist system participants. I'm not inclined to think Cuba is acting more economically rational.

I’ve smoked a lot of them but doesn’t make me an expert.  Never asked how the sausage was made.  I really have no clue why or how they are priced or processed, but the maduro vs natural are very different cigars in all their lines.  Strangely I preferred the maduro in the 4000, and 64, but in 26 I preferred the natural 

[Hollywood Ninja]

I imagine Padron would have a difficult time selling the same format stick for a higher price just because it’s a Maduro. I imagine that is factored into their pricing scheme.

I too find there is a flavor difference between Natural and Maduro thousand series.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bijan]

3 hours ago, Hollywood Ninja said:

I imagine Padron would have a difficult time selling the same format stick for a higher price just because it’s a Maduro. I imagine that is factored into their pricing scheme.

I too find there is a flavor difference between Natural and Maduro thousand series.

Could be. I mean if a wrapper is about $0.50 then it's not a crazy amount, even if maduro were to cost twice as much.

Edit: That being said there's nothing to stop the maduro and natural from having different blends.

[Cigar Surgeon]

9 hours ago, Bijan said:

Then why is there no premium charged on their entry level cigars for maduro wrappers? How is it that they do the 2.5-3 years of fermenting of maduro wrappers for free?

Edit: Also isn't 1964 line one of their premium lines which according to @nKostyan wouldn't be painted?

 

Again here's the recent thread where @Cigar Surgeon explains the process of fermenting maduro wrappers, and the several ways to "fake" the results quicker (wrapper cooking, wrapper painting, industrialized painting/madur-o-matic)

If we're talking about Padron, there's a few things at play here. First of all, despite the claims they are all Nicaraguan puros, they use San Andres wrappers. San Andres is very popular because the tobacco is significantly more affordable, and readily available, compared to other wrapper types (like Broadleaf). Additionally San Andres doesn't require years of fermenting in order to get it to where it needs to be; my above mentioned example was Broadleaf, because we were specifically discussing Drew Estate who uses a substantial amount of Broadleaf.

RoMa Craft uses San Andres on several cigars, and their pricing isn't outrageous, as an example.

The truth is, cigars don't really cost that much to produce. If you want to make a budget line like Padron, and cut some of the cost, you simply choose a lower grade of wrapper, a lower grade of binder, and potentially leave out some of the more expensive filler.

Ironically this thread is a great example of what I was referring to in the Maduro thread. There are people with little to no experience in the NC industry making grandiose claims about widespread practices with no evidence to back it up. 

But back to the assertion of "Why are NC cigars almost all Maduros?" - I don't believe that they are. If you were to do a quick facings counts to get a sample of what is being readily sold on the market, my expectation is that it would go:

• Ecuadorian Connecticut (actual Connecticut is much more expensive than it used to be)
  • Connecticut wrapper cigars represent 50% or more of the sales for most B&Ms
• Ecuadorian Habano
• Dark Habano (sun grown, maduro)
  • Anything Habano maduro does not need to be fermented for long as Habano is quite thin

From there it on it would be other Maduro wrappers (San Andres, Broadleaf), Corojo, etc. 

[Kevin48438]

Almost all NC makers that have the same blend/line with different wrappers, price them the same.  Of course they don’t cost the exact same to produce.  
 

This isn’t that unusual.   I’m looking at my golf clubs right now.  I have Vokey sm8 wedges.  52, 56, 60 degree.  I chose a different finish for each to make identification easier.  Chrome 52, Gunmetal 56, Black 60.   They are customized to me as well with tweaks to the lie and loft angles as well as grind type.   Spent at least 5x the time fitting the chrome 52 gap wedge cuz i wanted a very exact trajectory and yardge.   Different fitting times and different finishes: same price for each.

[djrey]

17 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

First of all, despite the claims they are all Nicaraguan puros, they use San Andres wrappers.

Wait seriously??? How long has this been a thing? Doesn't Padron themselves claim they are puros? 

[Cigar Surgeon]

3 minutes ago, djrey said:

Wait seriously??? How long has this been a thing? Doesn't Padron themselves claim they are puros? 

It has always been a thing. If you google Padron San Andres wrapper you will find dozens of articles from various magazines that talk about it. It's one of the biggest well known secrets in the NC industry. It was obvious to people in the industry back when Padron was claiming a puro cigar, because Nicaragua wasn't able to produce quality wrapper tobacco at that time.

The speculation is that Padron didn't want to be associated with Mexican tobacco, as the US market wouldn't react favorably. That's pure speculation though. 

[djrey]

9 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

It has always been a thing. If you google Padron San Andres wrapper you will find dozens of articles from various magazines that talk about it. It's one of the biggest well known secrets in the NC industry. It was obvious to people in the industry back when Padron was claiming a puro cigar, because Nicaragua wasn't able to produce quality wrapper tobacco at that time.

The speculation is that Padron didn't want to be associated with Mexican tobacco, as the US market wouldn't react favorably. That's pure speculation though. 

Wow that's really interesting. I will take a look into those articles. Thanks! 

[Tstew75]

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

If we're talking about Padron, there's a few things at play here. First of all, despite the claims they are all Nicaraguan puros, they use San Andres wrappers. San Andres is very popular because the tobacco is significantly more affordable, and readily available, compared to other wrapper types (like Broadleaf). Additionally San Andres doesn't require years of fermenting in order to get it to where it needs to be; my above mentioned example was Broadleaf, because we were specifically discussing Drew Estate who uses a substantial amount of Broadleaf.

RoMa Craft uses San Andres on several cigars, and their pricing isn't outrageous, as an example.

The truth is, cigars don't really cost that much to produce. If you want to make a budget line like Padron, and cut some of the cost, you simply choose a lower grade of wrapper, a lower grade of binder, and potentially leave out some of the more expensive filler.

Ironically this thread is a great example of what I was referring to in the Maduro thread. There are people with little to no experience in the NC industry making grandiose claims about widespread practices with no evidence to back it up. 

But back to the assertion of "Why are NC cigars almost all Maduros?" - I don't believe that they are. If you were to do a quick facings counts to get a sample of what is being readily sold on the market, my expectation is that it would go:

• Ecuadorian Connecticut (actual Connecticut is much more expensive than it used to be)
  • Connecticut wrapper cigars represent 50% or more of the sales for most B&Ms
• Ecuadorian Habano
• Dark Habano (sun grown, maduro)
  • Anything Habano maduro does not need to be fermented for long as Habano is quite thin

From there it on it would be other Maduro wrappers (San Andres, Broadleaf), Corojo, etc. 

Doc straight dropping science over here 👏