Why are NC cigars almost all maduro/oscuro?

[Kevin48438]

43 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

It has always been a thing. If you google Padron San Andres wrapper you will find dozens of articles from various magazines that talk about it. It's one of the biggest well known secrets in the NC industry. It was obvious to people in the industry back when Padron was claiming a puro cigar, because Nicaragua wasn't able to produce quality wrapper tobacco at that time.

The speculation is that Padron didn't want to be associated with Mexican tobacco, as the US market wouldn't react favorably. That's pure speculation though. 

Exactly it.  At least the company execs think that in my convos with them.  Why it’s called “San Andres”  vs Mexican wrapper.  I think it’s evolving some though.

Another note: companies often lie about tobacco to preserve blend secrets.  Especially if they are using all tobaccos from the market vs ones they exclusively have.

[Bijan]

@Cigar Surgeon thanks for the facts!

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Ironically this thread is a great example of what I was referring to in the Maduro thread. There are people with little to no experience in the NC industry making grandiose claims about widespread practices with no evidence to back it up. 

Don't know how ironic it is, I was asking the same kinds of silly questions in that thread too

I hope it doesn't sound like I was making grandiose claims. I have even less experience than you are suggesting in NC cigars, so I was just speculating and asking questions based on very few data points.

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

If we're talking about Padron, there's a few things at play here. First of all, despite the claims they are all Nicaraguan puros, they use San Andres wrappers.

So they were lying and cheating after all 😂 (kidding)

59 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

The speculation is that Padron didn't want to be associated with Mexican tobacco, as the US market wouldn't react favorably. That's pure speculation though. 

Reminds me of a South Park episode. A couple of guys (voice by Cheech and Chong) are selling Native American medicines or cures or something, but it turns out they're actually Mexican.

[Cigar Surgeon]

16 minutes ago, Bijan said:

@Cigar Surgeon thanks for the facts!

Don't know how ironic it is, I was asking the same kinds of silly questions in that thread too

I hope it doesn't sound like I was making grandiose claims. I have even less experience than you are suggesting in NC cigars, so I was just speculating and asking questions based on very few data points.

So they were lying and cheating after all 😂 (kidding)

Reminds me of a South Park episode. A couple of guys (voice by Cheech and Chong) are selling Native American medicines or cures or something, but it turns out they're actually Mexican.

No, it was definitely not directed at you. I don't want it to seem in any way that I'm pushing back against questions and discussions, this is a discussion forum after all. I'm pushing back against conclusions drawn based on incomplete or inaccurate information.

The NC cigar world is very, very different than the Cuban world. When you start to take into account the different varieties of tobacco, and how each of them have different flavor and burn characteristics, different processes for fermenting or finishing the tobacco, it becomes a very complex ecosystem. You can't even find two NC manufacturers that will agree on what the accepted way is to finish tobacco, let alone grading and sorting. 

And I hope my comments about Padron didn't come across as critical. It is almost universally accepted that Padron makes some of the best, and most consistent cigars in the NC world. They've done an amazing job building a brand that is consistent and delivers fantastic flavors. The wrapper thing is just one of those things that gets filed under 'industry nonsense' that is discussed in private industry circles. 

And really when we talk about Maduros, the Maduro 'process', is really a byproduct of some types of thicker leaves. The reason it becomes a Maduro isn't necessarily because your goal is to make a Maduro, it's because the leave is thick and needs to be fermented so that it becomes elastic, pliable, and takes on the flavor and burn characteristics that you would expect. For me the steaming / cooking process is the one that makes the least sense because you're achieving the physical characteristics while removing all the nuanced flavor components you would want out of expensive wrapper. 

[PuroDan]

On 3/13/2021 at 3:10 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

And I hope my comments about Padron didn't come across as critical.

They didnt but they are pure speculation/hearsay and not facts

 

On 3/13/2021 at 1:21 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

If we're talking about Padron, there's a few things at play here. First of all, despite the claims they are all Nicaraguan puros, they use San Andres wrappers.

"Boy oh boy, some strong opinions in this thread without ever having stepped inside a factory in Nicaragua"

In quotations above are your words from another thread posted. So here is my question. Is it a fact or a rumor/opinion that  padron using a mexican wrapper and not a true puro? If this is true, you are claiming that one of the most respected NC cigar companies in the world is lying and saying they are selling puros. "Boy oh boy, some strong opinions in this thread"🤣

Jorge and the Padron/cigar company claim that they sell puros . You are making a claim that Padron is lying. Can you back your claim up with actual evidence/facts?

[Cigar Surgeon]

1 hour ago, PuroDan said:

"Boy oh boy, some strong opinions in this thread without ever having stepped inside a factory in Nicaragua"

In quotations above are your words from another thread posted. So here is my question. Is it a fact or a rumor/opinion that  padron using a mexican wrapper and not a true puro? If this is true, you are claiming that one of the most respected NC cigar companies in the world is lying and saying they are selling puros. "Boy oh boy, some strong opinions in this thread"🤣

Jorge and the Padron/cigar company claim that they sell puros . You are making a claim that Padron is lying. Can you back your claim up with actual evidence/facts?

That all depends on what you're defining as actual evidence / facts, or how far you want to move the goalposts. 

In general I don't make claims unless I can back them up. 

[PuroDan]

9 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

That all depends on what you're defining as actual evidence / facts. If you believe multiple articles from Cigar Aficionado, or the blend breakdown from 4 or 5 online cigar retailers are facts, then yes. 

In general I don't make claims unless I can back them up. 

 

10 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

That all depends on what you're defining as actual evidence / facts. If you believe multiple articles from Cigar Aficionado, or the blend breakdown from 4 or 5 online cigar retailers are facts, then yes. 

In general I don't make claims unless I can back them up. 

Obviously everything written isnt fact, we both know that. It  is my opinion that CA could be biased based on the amount of advertising a certain cigar company spends per year. So a little playing the politics per say. Hypothetically speaking lets say Olivia spends 100k a year they may get a 2 point increase in a rating for the year on a certain cigar they make. Everybody wins, CA gets another good advertising contract the next year and Olivia moves more volume based on CA's rating. This is just business. Again just an opinion based on common business sense. It would be nice to get a third party who has no skin in the game to research this and test the cigar DNA ect. We had testing done with the Plume/mold thread.  I will admit that just because Jorge Padron made a claim in that thread i posted about mineral oil on wrappers doesnt mean its true. I have made general blanket statements about the NC industry myself, raisin juice wrappers, cigars tasting like chemicals ect. My point here is that just because you, I or Jorge Padron make a claim doesnt make it fact. I want the truth. My confidence is so high that liga privada uses flavor enhancers, coloring and  unnatural additives that i would be willing to bet 5k USD on it. Especially after finding out they make ACID cigars.

[Cigar Surgeon]

14 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

My point here is that just because you, I or Jorge Padron make a claim doesnt make it fact. I want the truth. My confidence is so high that liga privada uses flavor enhancers, coloring and  unnatural additives that i would be willing to bet 5k USD on it. Especially after finding out they make ACID cigars.

Without defining how that truth is measured, I don't see how it's possible to meet that metric.

If you want to find the truth yourself, here is the way you achieve that:

Find out what year Nicaragua started producing wrapper. Find out what year Padron starting making 'puro' Nicaraguan maduro cigars. Compare the two.

By doing that you can find your path to truth on your own.

[PuroDan]

1 minute ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Without defining how that truth is measured, I don't see how it's possible to meet that metric.

If you want to find the truth yourself, here is the way you achieve that:

Find out what year Nicaragua started producing wrapper. Find out what year Padron starting making 'puro' Nicaraguan maduro cigars. Compare the two.

By doing that you can find your path to truth on your own.

Truth is never measured, its just truth. An old quote from Georges Braque."Truth exists; only lies are invented". As for finding the truth, we would have to have a third party/lab test the the cigar to really know. This "i heard it on the internet so it must be true stuff" amazes me.

[Cigar Surgeon]

25 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

Truth is never measured, its just truth. An old quote from Georges Braque."Truth exists; only lies are invented". As for finding the truth, we would have to have a third party/lab test the the cigar to really know. This "i heard it on the internet so it must be true stuff" amazes me.

I've this conversation about this topic so many times in the last decade, with so many manufacturers and tobacco growers, I have lost count. Virtually none of what I've learned of cigars, manufacturing, tobacco growing has come from the Internet,

I wish you well on your journey of truth.

[mprach024]

I searched Google as deep as I’m capable, I find lots of different forum threads that claim the same as @Cigar Surgeon around Padron use of Turrent’s Negro Wrapper, I also see that in this article https://www.google.com/amp/s/robbreport.com/food-drink/cigars/crafting-padron-cigars-2858995/amp/ they never explicitly say the wrapper is from Nicaragua, although it’s implied.  I see no evidence of Padrons use of Mexican wrappers anywhere outside of forums of which this topic has been brought up a lot it looks (CA, BOTL, CigarForums, CigarAsylum).  CA in their reviews do list Padron cigars as having all Nicaraguan tobacco.

So essentially, Padrons use of Mexican wrapper sounds more like accusations than a journalistic report of fact.

I am very curious though if anyone can find proof though. Although I sense this will be difficult.  Here’s why it’s going to be very difficult - they don’t write articles about what things aren’t made of very often.  Finding an article saying that it is a Mexican wrapper will be next to impossible if it truly is a Nicaraguan wrapper.  It’d be the equivalent of asking someone to find an article talking about how the Washington Monument is made of Cheese not marble.  You won’t find it.  If it were made of cheese, I’m sure we’d find plenty of references there.  

[PuroDan]

1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

I've this conversation about this topic so many times in the last decade, with so many manufacturers and tobacco growers, I have lost count. Virtually none of what I've learned of cigars, manufacturing, tobacco growing has come from the Internet,

I wish you well on your journey of truth.

"Sure, Gary wrote in his blog article that he's citing Jorge, so we're taking that at face value as I said"

Im sure Jorge Padron has had his fair share of these conversations for multiple decades. Here is another quote from you above. So what is the difference about your claims of "mexican wrappers on Padron cigars" and Jorge Padrons claims about mineral oil on cigars? They should both be taken at face value then right? Is Jorge lying? Are you being lied to? Thats why truth is important here. All im saying is when it suits you to make a point you claim this knowledge and experience and when Jorge makes a claim it "should be taken at face value" Convenient 😀

[MrBirdman]

😑

[PuroDan]

9 hours ago, mprach024 said:

I searched Google as deep as I’m capable, I find lots of different forum threads that claim the same as @Cigar Surgeon around Padron use of Turrent’s Negro Wrapper, I also see that in this article https://www.google.com/amp/s/robbreport.com/food-drink/cigars/crafting-padron-cigars-2858995/amp/ they never explicitly say the wrapper is from Nicaragua, although it’s implied.  I see no evidence of Padrons use of Mexican wrappers anywhere outside of forums of which this topic has been brought up a lot it looks (CA, BOTL, CigarForums, CigarAsylum).  CA in their reviews do list Padron cigars as having all Nicaraguan tobacco.

So essentially, Padrons use of Mexican wrapper sounds more like accusations than a journalistic report of fact.

I am very curious though if anyone can find proof though. Although I sense this will be difficult.  Here’s why it’s going to be very difficult - they don’t write articles about what things aren’t made of very often.  Finding an article saying that it is a Mexican wrapper will be next to impossible if it truly is a Nicaraguan wrapper.  It’d be the equivalent of asking someone to find an article talking about how the Washington Monument is made of Cheese not marble.  You won’t find it.  If it were made of cheese, I’m sure we’d find plenty of references there.  

One thing we are learning here is that is seems that the NC world has lots of secrets

 

11 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

In general I don't make claims unless I can back them up. 

Back it up then

 

11 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

That all depends on what you're defining as actual evidence / facts, or how far you want to move the goalposts. 

In general I don't make claims unless I can back them up. 

Its not me that made the claim. So goalposts dont apply, at least not to me.

 

On 3/13/2021 at 1:21 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

Ironically this thread is a great example of what I was referring to in the Maduro thread. There are people with little to no experience in the NC industry making grandiose claims about widespread practices with no evidence to back it up. 

You mean like Jorge Padron making claims of mineral oil on wrappers? You are making the claim the CA is wrong about Padron  being a puro. Something is way off here.  

[Kevin48438]

Padron didn’t claim anything about anyone else.   Just said he had heard unsubstantiated rumors.  He claims that for Padron: no oil added.

[PuroDan]

On 3/12/2021 at 9:10 AM, Cigar Surgeon said:

I'm pushing back against conclusions drawn based on incomplete or inaccurate information

???

 

32 minutes ago, Kevin48438 said:

Padron didn’t claim anything about anyone else.   Just said he had heard unsubstantiated rumors.  He claims that for Padron: no oil added.

Youre right. That is true, more of a blanket statement about the NC manufactures .Here is the major difference. @Cigar Surgeon makes a direct accusation about Padron using mexican wrapper and claiming its not a puro. Big difference

[RedLantern]

2 hours ago, PuroDan said:

Truth is never measured, its just truth... As for finding the truth, we would have to have a third party/lab test the the cigar to really know. 

wot.

[PuroDan]

9 minutes ago, RedLantern said:

wot.

What i meant was all truth is the same.

[El Presidente]

Pull your heads in.

Think twice before you press the Report  button to mods.

Some poor mod with a sunday morning negroni hangover has to read the dribble report and then work out which kids in the sandpit can't play together.

If its the same kid each time then he will be shown the door.

 

[asmazda]

Many NC are Maduro because it gives a sweetness and flavor to cover up the dog poop inside.  Of course there are exceptions, such as the premier brands (Padron, Tatuaje, Etc.).

[Cigar Surgeon]

2 hours ago, mprach024 said:

I am very curious though if anyone can find proof though. Although I sense this will be difficult.  Here’s why it’s going to be very difficult - they don’t write articles about what things aren’t made of very often.  Finding an article saying that it is a Mexican wrapper will be next to impossible if it truly is a Nicaraguan wrapper.  It’d be the equivalent of asking someone to find an article talking about how the Washington Monument is made of Cheese not marble.  You won’t find it.  If it were made of cheese, I’m sure we’d find plenty of references there.  

The only articles that I'm aware of that have published it are Famous Smoke, Dojo, and a smattering of online cigar retailers in the blend listing (see below). Coincidentally, the first article is from the same author the original Jorge Padron quote was from, so that should create an interesting conundrum. 

https://www.famous-smoke.com/cigaradvisor/mexican-san-andres-wrapper-cigars

https://cigardojo.com/2018/04/padron-1964-anniversary-series-presidente-maduro/

https://www.smallbatchcigar.com/padron-1926-series

[mprach024]

5 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

the first article is from the same author the original Jorge Padron quote was from, so that should create an interesting conundrum. 

https://www.famous-smoke.com/cigaradvisor/mexican-san-andres-wrapper-cigars

Did I miss where it mentions Padron?  I see a list of sticks using the wrapper but didn’t see Padron mentioned at all.

For the record I don’t care what Padron uses, they are good NCs.  But if they are lying about what they use than that causes credibility issues whenever Jorge talks about anything as expert.  Not that he’s not an expert, of course he is, but the problem created is if he’s hiding/lying about a major thing like his wrapper than we don’t know what else he’s hiding/lying about.  

I don’t see the San Andres mentioned in the second article but it’s clearly stated in the third for the 1926 series.  That’s the first I’ve ever seen it ever mentioned.  Strange cause Cigar Afficionado still shows Nicaraguan for the 1926.

[Cigar Surgeon]

1 minute ago, mprach024 said:

Did I miss where it mentions Padron?  I see a list of sticks using the wrapper but didn’t see Padron mentioned at all.

Quotations from the articles, in order:

Quote

Today, under the direction of Alejandro Turrent, the tobaccos grown on his family’s 2,000 acres are among the most prized by blenders all over Central America, and you’ll find them in such brands as Montecristo, Macanudo, and even Padron (surprise!), to name a few.

Quote

The 1964 series has all but been confirmed to use a Mexican San Andrés wrapper. As Padrón still officially lists the blend as Nicaraguan puro, we use this information in the breakdown.

Quote

PADRON 1926 SERIES COMPOSITION:
Wrapper: Nicarguan Natural Sun Grown/ Mexican San Andres Maduro
Binder: Nicaraguan
Filler: Nicaraguan

 

[PuroDan]

This is from the Cigar Dojo  link listed

1964 Anniversary Series Presidente Maduro Breakdown

• Wrapper: Nicaraguan Sun-Grown (4-year-aged)
• Binder: Nicaraguan Sun-Grown (4-year-aged)
• Filler: Nicaraguan Sun-Grown (4-year-aged)
• Factory: Tabacos Cubanica S.A. (Nicaragua)
• Production: Regular Production
• Vitola: 6″ × 50 “Presidente” (Toro)
• Price: $15.50 (MSRP)

Padrón 1926 Serie No. 90 Natural Breakdown

• Wrapper: Nicaragua
• Binder: Nicaragua
• Filler: Nicaragua
• Factory: Tabacos Cubanica S.A. (Nicaragua)
• Production: Regular Production
• Vitola: 5½” × 52 “No. 90” Robusto Extra (non-box-pressed)
• Price: $19.50 (MSRP)

 

[Bijan]

6 minutes ago, PuroDan said:

This is from the Cigar Dojo  link listed

Yes as was said:

"The 1964 series has all but been confirmed to use a Mexican San Andrés wrapper. As Padrón still officially lists the blend as Nicaraguan puro, we use this information in the breakdown."

[PuroDan]

Just now, Bijan said:

Yes as was said:

"The 1964 series has all but been confirmed to use a Mexican San Andrés wrapper. As Padrón still officially lists the blend as Nicaraguan puro, we use this information in the breakdown."

Yes i saw that. This is just weird. I mean i have had a few padrons in my day and they are not a bad smoke. So the question is who do i believe? Cigar Aficionado lists them as puros. So do lots of others that are reputable. It seems as the "not as well known" websites say they do use the mexican wrapper.  Again... Looks like the NC world if full of deceit