How are the R&J characteristics obtained?

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, Bijan said:

Yes, so non-dosage more of a fad then. Again I wonder if it roughly coincided with the no carb period we went through.

Though it does seem brut and extra brut are the default options now, especially in those bigger houses.

i think most of the big houses are still 7/8 to 12 grams. but they have definitely reduced levels. 

and yes, that no carb push did seem to link in. we saw endless 'ladies who lunch' all delighted to be guzzling low dosage or especially no dosage champers claiming that they were calorie free. of course, they did forget the small matter of the calories in the alcohol. 

[Bijan]

The argument can still be made for a link to terroir though now more indirect. With the trend towards lower though not no dosage, you have to choose and blend grapes/wines that suit that style, or at least modify their proportions in the blend.  Beyond my abilities to speculate. Those with more knowledge can comment on if different villages/vineyards have come up or gone down in esteam in this period and if tastes may have had anything to do with it. There is obviously much that can be done in the act of growing, but there must still be some contribution from terroir.

It would boggle the mind to think going from 200-300g/l (in some styles in olden times) to 10g/l wouldn't have massive effect on what is thought of as a good grape/wine. And going down within that lower range in more recent times should have had an effect as well.

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, Bijan said:

The argument can still be made for a link to terroir though now more indirect. With the trend towards lower though not no dosage, you have to choose and blend grapes/wines that suit that style, or at least modify their proportions in the blend.  Beyond my abilities to speculate. Those with more knowledge can comment on if different villages/vineyards have come up or gone down in esteam in this period and if tastes may have had anything to do with it. There is obviously much that can be done in the act of growing, but there must still be some contribution from terroir.

It would boggle the mind to think going from 200-300g/l (in some styles in olden times) to 10g/l wouldn't have massive effect on what is thought of as a good grape/wine. And going down within that lower range in more recent times should have had an effect as well.

pretty much! 

[Çnote]

@Ken Gargett mad props for your expertise showing in this thread.

Circling back to the OP question via Reims, I think the correlation of HSA and Moët is pretty sharp, as you have the VIP consumers with decades of house loyalty, but you have to make lemonade with whatever is in the warehouse. I don't think Jaquesson has gotten their non-domestic market share back, but the last USA numbers for Moët I can find are fabulous, but I have a feeling that DP is a pretty big positive skew in the € numbers.

What about the huge numbers of D4,  MC#4 and MC#2 that are produced? Or the push to shorter and wider vitolas? 

Isn't HSA producing what they can for a limited amount of true clients, while the real consumer a couple-three middlemen later are able to enjoy something that's been hand selected hopefully once or twice, depending on your vendor preference or own set of eyeballs?

[Bijan]

2 minutes ago, Çnote said:

What about the huge numbers of D4,  MC#4 and MC#2 that are produced? Or the push to shorter and wider vitolas? 

Isn't HSA producing what they can for a limited amount of true clients, while the real consumer a couple-three middlemen later are able to enjoy something that's been hand selected hopefully once or twice, depending on your vendor preference or own set of eyeballs?

Except in Ken's example Moet were wrestling the consumer over time to lower dosage to make a better product, if they did it slow enough they wouldn't spook the customer. Where according to the feelings on this forum, HSA are slowly catering to the lowest common denominator trend for short fat 60RG+ nub monstrosities 😂

And to me that's because you get the most $$$ per limited lb of tobacco out of fat cigars. No similar money motive can be attributed to the champagne producers. Sugar is practically free.

[mprach024]

3 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Except in Ken's example Moet were wrestling the consumer over time to lower dosage to make a better product, if they did it slow enough they wouldn't spook the customer. Where according to the feelings on this forum, HSA are slowly catering to the lowest common denominator trend for short fat 60RG+ nub monstrosities 😂

And to me that's because you get the most $$$ per limited lb of tobacco out of fat cigars. No similar money motive can be attributed to the champagne producers. Sugar is practically free.

Harumph

[Çnote]

41 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Sugar is practically free

Correct, with French agricultural subsidies, sugar is nominally free. 

[BrightonCorgi]

We have to keep in mind that hospitality industry are the biggest buyers of Champagne; not the direct buyer.  Grower Champagne is consumer based, but the scales are different.

No dosage may be a trend, but dry Champagne is here to stay.  Geekier sweeter Champagne will emerge like it was done a century ago, but will take time to catch on. 

The most of the sweet wine sector is declining.  Great time to invest in Grand Cru Sauternes; no one buys it. 

[Ken Gargett]

9 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said:

We have to keep in mind that hospitality industry are the biggest buyers of Champagne; not the direct buyer.  Grower Champagne is consumer based, but the scales are different.

No dosage may be a trend, but dry Champagne is here to stay.  Geekier sweeter Champagne will emerge like it was done a century ago, but will take time to catch on. 

The most of the sweet wine sector is declining.  Great time to invest in Grand Cru Sauternes; no one buys it. 

absolutely. it is exactly why champagne has suffered far more than most wines during covid. grower champagne is a very small section of the market and certainly not growing at the rate many predicted. it is perhaps the most talked about but least drunk style of wine out there. 

while i would say never say never again, i do agree that drier styles of champagne are locked in for the foreseeable future. you can still find an occasional sweeter style - veuve clicquot make one - but harder than ever locate. 

indeed, sweeter styles declining and it is so unfair the sauternes sector suffers. some wonderful wines. 100% agree. a great time to invest. BUT. i have to disagree on people buying them. i bought some a week or two ago. great value. take advantage! though so many seem to ignore these great wines. 

[NSXCIGAR]

On 3/17/2021 at 5:45 AM, CaptainQuintero said:

  I think there must also be a point where whatever the process, the end products are significantly stable in flavour, so much that Cuba can essentially use a 'recipe book' for how to blend any particular cigar they wish.

  Whilst they test the results to check they smoke correctly, it shows how reliable their tobacco crops are in terms of consistency of characteristics.

  It brings up the questions of crop variety because clearly things have changed since the 80's etc. But they can't be creating strains for each different area of each farm in PdR to get different flavours. Which, to me at least, points more towards that it's the specific areas where the tobacco is grown which is the most direct influence on flavour. 

I think the crops are consistent because the area is consistent. In other words, tobacco grown in that area, assuming optimal human inputs, will always taste that way. That's why the areas where the blends are grown is the ultimate secret. Whoever owns that land essentially owns that blend. I would imagine producers tried to get growers into long-term deals to lock up that tobacco so the growers couldn't gouge the cigar producer. A grower could take down a whole brand by withholding leaf or jacking up prices on them after their brand becomes successful. 

As far as strains, I don't think they affect specific flavor profiles. Remember, only one strain was used for filler for 60 years, and during that time the differences between brands and flavors was greatest. 

[Ken Gargett]

3 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

We have to keep in mind that hospitality industry are the biggest buyers of Champagne; not the direct buyer.  Grower Champagne is consumer based, but the scales are different.

No dosage may be a trend, but dry Champagne is here to stay.  Geekier sweeter Champagne will emerge like it was done a century ago, but will take time to catch on. 

The most of the sweet wine sector is declining.  Great time to invest in Grand Cru Sauternes; no one buys it. 

by a neat coincidence, an importer from down south who is a good mate just got in an amazing sauternes offer. cases back to 1929. the younger vintages are very cheap, at least for us, and they re coming direct from the cellars in bordeaux. i got some 2001 and 2011, two of my fave vintages. if the coffers allowed, i'd have grabbed a lot more. 67s, 88-90, 75 and 76, 29s, 47s, 55s. 

[CaptainQuintero]

5 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I think the crops are consistent because the area is consistent. In other words, tobacco grown in that area, assuming optimal human inputs, will always taste that way. That's why the areas where the blends are grown is the ultimate secret. Whoever owns that land essentially owns that blend. I would imagine producers tried to get growers into long-term deals to lock up that tobacco so the growers couldn't gouge the cigar producer. A grower could take down a whole brand by withholding leaf or jacking up prices on them after their brand becomes successful. 

As far as strains, I don't think they affect specific flavor profiles. Remember, only one strain was used for filler for 60 years, and during that time the differences between brands and flavors was greatest. 

  It's something that would be interesting to delve into but I'm guessing it's part of the secrets that aren't really exposed.

  I'm leaning towards as you say the make up of the soil/land, everything points that way. If it is that, something has to done to keep that consistency. Just by growing on the same land minerals and nutrients will be depleted, the same land had been used for at least a century, even with seasonal area rotations, so out must be being replenished naturally or by human means; recycling the plants been into the soil after leaves have been harvested? The local river water coming from a mineral rich source etc

  Whatever it is, it has to be natural/basic just because of the issues around Cuban use of chemical fertilisers

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  It's something that would be interesting to delve into but I'm guessing it's part of the secrets that aren't really exposed.

  I'm leaning towards as you say the make up of the soil/land, everything points that way. If it is that, something has to done to keep that consistency. Just by growing on the same land minerals and nutrients will be depleted, the same land had been used for at least a century, even with seasonal area rotations, so out must be being replenished naturally or by human means; recycling the plants been into the soil after leaves have been harvested? The local river water coming from a mineral rich source etc

  Whatever it is, it has to be natural/basic just because of the issues around Cuban use of chemical fertilisers

It's been explained to me that PdR's lack of perfection is actually what makes it perfect. The Volcanic soil is very rich in Iron and bright red. Otherwise it contains very little nutrients or organic matter. The lack of Organic matter makes the soil very "light" and "airy", in other words, its easy for the roots to grow quickly and ultimately very large. 

A "perfect" growing season has very little rain as well. They don't grow tobacco during the "typical" summer season down there. They thread the needle between the end of the Hurricane season late summer/early fall and the beginning of the rainy season in April/May. 

There is also a large swing between day/night temps (as much as 25 degrees f) which they say is also beneficial. I cant back it up, but I know those large swings in temp help citrus and Grapes ripen and pack on more sugar towards the end of their growing seasons. 

This lack of uncontrolled external inputs allows the farmers to control how much fertilizer they apply, what fertilizer they apply, when they apply it. Same with water, amount, quantity, timing. 

The plants are "stressed" to a certain degree, forcing them to grow more vigorously. I've also heard(Cough Cough) of similar techniques being used on another smokable crop in the second half of its flowering phase. Fertilizer is cut off, the soil is flushed, High UV B bulbs are introduced, day and night temperature fluctuations are increased. All of this is designed to stress the plant and force it to pack on "defenses" in the form of Trichomes. 

Nicotine and other VOC's in the tobacco plants are their defense's (nicotine is technically a poison) against bugs, sun burn, etc. I'm not a botanist, but I've learned over the years that I have a bit of a "green thumb", this kind of stuff fascinates me. 

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

I'm leaning towards as you say the make up of the soil/land, everything points that way. If it is that, something has to done to keep that consistency. Just by growing on the same land minerals and nutrients will be depleted, the same land had been used for at least a century, even with seasonal area rotations, so out must be being replenished naturally or by human means; recycling the plants been into the soil after leaves have been harvested?

You also have microclimate. Small, almost imperceptible variations in temp and humidity, sunlight and wind in areas of only a few acres. Nearly all premium filler leaf comes from San Juan y Martinez and San Luis, which are both within a 5 mile radius of each other. 

As far as soil depletion, I would assume producers stock leaf for consistent production knowing there will be a pause from the farmers at some point. The farmers could tell you what they do in terms of replenishment.

6 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

It's been explained to me that PdR's lack of perfection is actually what makes it perfect. The Volcanic soil is very rich in Iron and bright red. Otherwise it contains very little nutrients or organic matter. The lack of Organic matter makes the soil very "light" and "airy", in other words, its easy for the roots to grow quickly and ultimately very large. 

A "perfect" growing season has very little rain as well. They don't grow tobacco during the "typical" summer season down there. They thread the needle between the end of the Hurricane season late summer/early fall and the beginning of the rainy season in April/May. 

There is also a large swing between day/night temps (as much as 25 degrees f) which they say is also beneficial. I cant back it up, but I know those large swings in temp help citrus and Grapes ripen and pack on more sugar towards the end of their growing seasons. 

Pinar isn't ideal for most crops but it is for premium tobacco. The soil is sandy, granular and loamy (high clay content, retains nutrients well, excellent drainage) which makes the roots work harder, and stresses the plant. Lack of rain allows for hand-watering, further stressing the plant. 

The temperature variation in Cuba in season is from about 83° high to 68° low. Nicaragua has a lower spread and gets hotter (85-72) and the DR has a higher spread, but highs are hotter (86-68). So it seems absolute temp and spread are both important. Cuba's 83-68 seems to be ideal and unique in the world. 

Different plants prefer different conditions. You can't compare fruits to tobacco. For example some apples like McIntosh that grow in the Northeast and Canada need hot daytime temps and a chill at night--huge temp spreads. Lemons and oranges like very little spread and need no chill.

[Corylax18]

6 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

You also have microclimate. Small, almost imperceptible variations in temp and humidity, sunlight and wind in areas of only a few acres. Nearly all premium filler leaf comes from San Juan y Martinez and San Luis, which are both within a 5 mile radius of each other. 

As far as soil depletion, I would assume producers stock leaf for consistent production knowing there will be a pause from the farmers at some point. The farmers could tell you what they do in terms of replenishment.

Pinar isn't ideal for most crops but it is for premium tobacco. The soil is sandy, granular and loamy (high clay content, retains nutrients well, excellent drainage) which makes the roots work harder, and stresses the plant. Lack of rain allows for hand-watering, further stressing the plant. 

The temperature variation in Cuba in season is from about 83° high to 68° low. Nicaragua has a lower spread and gets hotter (85-72) and the DR has a higher spread, but highs are hotter (86-68). So it seems absolute temp and spread are both important. Cuba's 83-68 seems to be ideal and unique in the world. 

Different plants prefer different conditions. You can't compare fruits to tobacco. For example some apples like McIntosh that grow in the Northeast and Canada need hot daytime temps and a chill at night--huge temp spreads. Lemons and oranges like very little spread and need no chill.

I wasn't trying to compare different fruits, or flowers to tobacco leaf. But, I was using them as other examples of crops that can benefit from some form of stress to the plant. Weather induced or natural. 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

I wasn't trying to compare different fruits, or flowers to tobacco leaf. But, I was using them as other examples of crops that can benefit from some form of stress to the plant. Weather induced or natural. 

No, I understand. I was just pointing out the swing alone isn't the determining factor in Cuba since DR has a greater high-low swing. I think absolute temp plays a critical role. I wasn't able to get humidity stats, but Nicaragua and DR do tend to be more humid than Cuba generally and that may be important as well.