Popular Post Ken Gargett Posted March 21, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 21, 2021 5 hours ago, Chibearsv said: If I don't know a reviewers tastes based on common experiences, their specific rating of a cigar doesn't have a lot of meaning to me except that I learn which cigars a reviewer picks as better or worse on their scale in their experience. The narrative of your written review, the look on each of your faces in video reviews, or the tone in your voices as you're each describing the smoking experience tells me so much more than the number. So why put a number on it at all? marketing. the wine stores discovered that a score (a good score, though when all this started, 88 was a good score but now, forget that) made a huge difference to sales - previously it was medals and still is to a degree. the sad fact is that most people check the score but do not read the review. personally, with wine, i always tell people to work out which reviewer suits your palate. they differ as does palates. so if the parker style suits, jump on board. someone else, follow them. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Çnote Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 6 hours ago, Chibearsv said: So why put a number on it at all? To make an easily conveyed soundbite for marketing. @Ken Gargettbeat me to the punch... Everyone understands numbers, but not everyone will take the time to parce out individual reviews, much less years of reviews from multiple sources so they can understand what 89 or 98 means to the reviewer and how that would extrapolate to the reader of the review. If you're into the philosophy of reviews over numbers, I recommend a trip down the Terry Thiese rabbit hole. He wrote an article in one of his Skurnik portfolios on why he didn't use a number based rating system at one point https://www.terrytheise.com/portfolio Here's the article... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightonCorgi Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said: marketing. the wine stores discovered that a score (a good score, though when all this started, 88 was a good score but now, forget that) made a huge difference to sales - previously it was medals and still is to a degree. the sad fact is that most people check the score but do not read the review. personally, with wine, i always tell people to work out which reviewer suits your palate. they differ as does palates. so if the parker style suits, jump on board. someone else, follow them. Description and insight into what is expected for that kind of wine are best way to judge as a consumer reading a review. Scores get inflated for several reasons. The older the wine, more varied the experience can be due to storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said: Description and insight into what is expected for that kind of wine are best way to judge as a consumer reading a review. Scores get inflated for several reasons. The older the wine, more varied the experience can be due to storage. no argument. but the vast majority don't take that road. a shame. there are a couple of critics i know who worked out very quickly that if they wanted their review quoted by marketers, they needed to give a high score. hence they would be seen as the person quoted and presumably the authority. others decided that they needed to top that. has become silly. storage has certainly contributed to inconsistency (though as most reviewing wines are doing so with new releases, less of a concern for joe bloggs who is looking to buy - much more so for those of us keen to read about/hear about/try older wines). so too, corks. i remember a de vogue musigny 1990 a friend brought to lunch. one of the greatest wines i've ever seen. extraordinary. a while later he pulled another out of that box, from next to where the star had been. wasn't faulty but no life, no excitement. chalk and cheese. so where does scoring that wine leave you? if i had only seen the first, 99 or 100. if i only see the second, about 80. not sure that there is an answer but i agree with you on reading the reviews. that would be a good start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Çnote Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said: so too, corks. i remember a de vogue musigny 1990 a friend brought to lunch. one of the greatest wines i've ever seen. extraordinary. a while later he pulled another out of that box, from next to where the star had been. wasn't faulty but no life, no excitement. chalk and cheese. so where does scoring that wine leave you? if i had only seen the first, 99 or 100 I think it was Robert Parker hisself that said something to the effect, 'at 20 years, there are no good wines, only good bottles.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, Çnote said: I think it was Robert Parker hisself that said something to the effect, 'at 20 years, there are no good wines, only good bottles.' i think it was an old saying from the english trade but who knows! a friend had a better saying when talking older wines - there are no good bottles, just good corks. or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordAnubis Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 The problem i have with the system is that really its a 25 point taste scale (im going off memory here)... sure the system makes sense if you're objectively trying to put one roller and his own blend against another. But when rating regular production cigars, construction and all that junk just doesnt matter. What i mean is you cant fairly judge a plugged cigar against a well constructed one... you should rate two well constructed ones. 85 doesnt seem too bad compared to 94, but in reality its a 10 compared to 19.... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted March 21, 2021 Share Posted March 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, LordAnubis said: The problem i have with the system is that really its a 25 point taste scale (im going off memory here)... sure the system makes sense if you're objectively trying to put one roller and his own blend against another. But when rating regular production cigars, construction and all that junk just doesnt matter. What i mean is you cant fairly judge a plugged cigar against a well constructed one... you should rate two well constructed ones. 85 doesnt seem too bad compared to 94, but in reality its a 10 compared to 19.... mus, this exposes the issues with the 100 point scale or any scale. for some, it is 84 v 95 and others can see that as 10 to 19 but some would not. something churchill said about democracy being the worst system except for all the others. this is a bit like that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy556 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 21 hours ago, Bijan said: I could see it being the most useful. But the others seem to be of some use no? When the “average” cigar has a 92 rating the 100 point scale is not valid. Yes, cigars are better now then they have ever been, but every average cigar is not nearly perfect. That is what I think, others are free to disagree and I am sure there are arguments to support a 100 point scale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bijan Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 25 minutes ago, Timothy556 said: When the “average” cigar has a 92 rating the 100 point scale is not valid. Yes, cigars are better now then they have ever been, but every average cigar is not nearly perfect. That is what I think, others are free to disagree and I am sure there are arguments to support a 100 point scale. I'm not a fan of the 100 point scale but it's not useless. You can still use it to rank cigars based on their inflated scores. If you took the developing palates scores and added 90 to every score it wouldn't contain any less information even though the average would be 95. But mainly I took issue with your comment because I use a 5 point scale and it is very useful to me and it sounded like you are saying the developing palates scales is the only useful scale. Maybe it's much better doesn't make the other inferior systems useless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightonCorgi Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 4 hours ago, Ken Gargett said: no argument. but the vast majority don't take that road. a shame. there are a couple of critics i know who worked out very quickly that if they wanted their review quoted by marketers, they needed to give a high score. hence they would be seen as the person quoted and presumably the authority. others decided that they needed to top that. has become silly. My favorite wine critic or reviewer was Michael Broadbent. His descriptions of wines and port made sense and conveyed what was in the glass without being over detailed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 24 minutes ago, BrightonCorgi said: My favorite wine critic or reviewer was Michael Broadbent. His descriptions of wines and port made sense and conveyed what was in the glass without being over detailed. had a little bit to do with broadbent many years ago and he was mostly very nice to a young bloke. if we ever get to sit down and have a drink, i'll tell you some stories. involved the 31 Noval. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordAnubis Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 8 hours ago, Ken Gargett said: mus, this exposes the issues with the 100 point scale or any scale. for some, it is 84 v 95 and others can see that as 10 to 19 but some would not. something churchill said about democracy being the worst system except for all the others. this is a bit like that. Sure, i just think, that for most of us, we want to know what the flavour of the cigar is. I want to know if i should go and buy a box. Whether the cigar you review is plugged or not is not really a concern for me, and all cigars should be judged on a level playing field which i think His Majesty does to a fair extent. Ultimately i look at all your video reviews and assume the cigars all get 85/85 for all the other rubbish, and then look at how many out of 25 at the end for the taste. The 100 point scale is great i imagine for someting like marsterchef where you're evaluating something one individual has done. I dont think its very good though for cigars where there is no consistency at all box to box or cigar to cigar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin48438 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 A good review contains a bunch of the objective parts of a cigar. Appearance, storage conditions, draw, burn, time/pace of smoke, etc. Flavors are a somewhat gray area. People don’t all taste the same things, the same way, to the same level. For example, cilantro (coriander). Many who have a strong dislike for it say they get a strong flavor of soap. I get where a note of soap could be found. But is pales in comparison to the bright, citrus, acidic, grass notes I get. A wonderful addition to many a food. I find dill pickles to be overwhelming when used as a condiment in any way. I can enjoy a pickle on it’s own occasionally, but it only makes a sandwich worse in my opinion. So reviews are increasingly helpful to me as I get to know the reviewer. I only pay close attention to a few reviewers in my buying decisions. Scores are just some person’s (or organization’s) opinion about cigars. I’ll be curious to try almost any experienced smoker’s favorite (highest scoring) though. I don’t expect any objectivity though. Take CA for example. I take them at their word that it is a composite of a number of blind (unbanded) samples. If a new cigar scores a 95 and it’s from a maker I am hit and miss on, I will try a single, if/when available. If it’s from a Padron, Illusuone, Fuente, or Taruaje, I get a box. Easy to trade for other premiums if I want. I don’t score or use cigars in competition to each other. I collect/stockpile/age them to serve roles in my smoking life. For some where that is part of the hobby, It seems any system would work for their own internal communication. However, when they want to communicate it to others, the CA system is the most common cigar language. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Surgeon Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 17 hours ago, Bijan said: I'm not a fan of the 100 point scale but it's not useless. You can still use it to rank cigars based on their inflated scores. If you took the developing palates scores and added 90 to every score it wouldn't contain any less information even though the average would be 95. But mainly I took issue with your comment because I use a 5 point scale and it is very useful to me and it sounded like you are saying the developing palates scales is the only useful scale. Maybe it's much better doesn't make the other inferior systems useless. Well from my / our perspective, it doesn't work like that. Unless someone can determine what constitutes an 'average' score for the 100 point scale, it doesn't really translate. Most of the scores we hand out land in the average category, because most of the new NC releases being put out are objectively average cigars. That's where the big gap is in my view. But I agree with you, the 5 point scale is just as valid if the entire is range is used. 3 hours ago, Kevin48438 said: For some where that is part of the hobby, It seems any system would work for their own internal communication. However, when they want to communicate it to others, the CA system is the most common cigar language. Unfortunately the market is definitely set up for the CA 100 point system and it's difficult to market a media site if you don't use the same system. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bijan Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said: Well from my / our perspective, it doesn't work like that. Unless someone can determine what constitutes an 'average' score for the 100 point scale, it doesn't really translate. Most of the scores we hand out land in the average category, because most of the new NC releases being put out are objectively average cigars. That's where the big gap is in my view. Yes definitely. I believe the criticism was that since the 100 point scale has an average of 92 these day it is completely non-sensical. Now it may be very silly to use 100 points if average is 92 but if one knows the average it just becomes a scale with a smaller number of points. Of course as you say there may not be a consistent average as scores inflate over time. I still doubt we'll see the day the average hits 100. I guess then we'll have a 105 point scale 🤔 1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said: Unfortunately the market is definitely set up for the CA 100 point system and it's difficult to market a media site if you don't use the same system. If one could figure an average, a minimum and a maximum for the 100 point scale, it's pretty simple math to convert any other system to the CA 100 point system. Say 85 is the minimum, 92.5 average, 100 maximum. Then developing palates would need to map 5 to 92.5 and 0 to 85 and 10 to 100. That's developing palates x 1.5 + 85. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Surgeon Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, Bijan said: Yes definitely. I believe the criticism was that since the 100 point scale has an average of 92 these day it is completely non-sensical. Now it may be very silly to use 100 points if average is 92 but if one knows the average it just becomes a scale with a smaller number of points. Of course as you say there may not be a consistent average as scores inflate over time. I still doubt we'll see the day the average hits 100. I guess then we'll have a 105 point scale 🤔 Agreed on all fronts. Aaron Loomis has been writing an editorial called 'When a 90 is not a 90" for the past few years, which provides an analytical breakdown of popular cigar media sites and where their published scores rank each year. https://developingpalates.com/editorials/cigar-editorials/cigar-editorial-90-not-90-3-years-later/ The distribution of scoring is always the most interesting part to me. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Nation Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 If a reviewer restricts his scores to the 80-100 point zone, as seems to be the biggest complaint, that isn’t a failing of the 100-point scale. It’s more a failing of the reviewer always grading on a curve and refusing to do differently. ECCJ used to use a 5-star system. They switched to the 100-point system like everyone else once they went CJ. Has it served them well? How about Cigar Press? No rating system at all. Just a review. How has that worked out for them? Does it serve the cigar world? If you ask me, I’d prefer the Siskel & Ebert system. Thumbs up. Thumbs down. A brief explanation as to why, and goodnight. Perhaps overly simplistic, but if the reviewer's palate is keen and the writing is on point, you'll be able to tell a good cigar from a great one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 i think we are missing the point of all this, to a degree. for the vast majority of us, we want to know what people think about a cigar. we want the review. sure, a score is fine but it is only a tiny part of the story. and it really does not matter if it is in thumbs up or down, out of five, out of twenty or out of 100, whether that person uses only 80 to 100 or the full whack and uses 0 to 100. we all know that a 90 for X and a 90 for Y might mean two cigars that are very different. we want to know those differences. i would guess that for the majority of us, the review is far more important than the end score. but we are the minority. for the vast majority of those who enjoy a smoke, whether regularly or once a year, they'll only care about the score. write reams of info and most will still only look at the score. i suspect this is even more prevalent for wine. people either are not interested in reading the reviews or don't have time or don't have the same interest we do. they will just go with a score. that is why we have points scales, whatever form they take. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chibearsv Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 To Ken’s point on marketing, I get a couple NC catalogs that have the CA rating stamped on the individual cigar photos and I’d guess that if a selection of cigars are offered on any page, the rated cigars would sell more often. Probably no other info would be necessary to create the increased demand. The biggest reason I joined FOH was watching dozens of the video reviews and my appreciation of the apparent honesty of Rob and Ken’s assessments for better or worse. Now I also benefit from all of the forum member’s reviews too. No ratings necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mprach024 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 If someone is new to something. Ratings are decent way to get ones bearings. When I first got into Bordeaux and didn’t know how to pronounce 75% of them, it was good see how some wines consistently scored throughout a range of vintages, gave me a starting point and a barometer of who are the sought after or better performers. Same with cigars I suppose. Honestly I can tell you I haven’t looked at a CA ratings or WS/RP ratings list in years, but I do enjoy some of the region write-ups, closer-looks at some growers, rollers, producers. Some of my favorite wines/cigars don’t score nearly as high as others, and I don’t care. It has no impact on my buying, in fact (selfishly) I often hope they’d rate poorer so demand and prices don’t increase. The only time I ever look at ratings for either of these hobbies is when it’s “en primeur” in Bordeaux. Mainly I’m not looking at the individual vineyards and their scores, but more of a general trend of scores to gauge how the vintage will be. That’s wine though, and in Bordeaux historically the vintages are almost as or more important than the difference between producers that are a couple blocks from each other (not always but in general). There’s no harvest ratings that I’m aware of for Cuba, although that’d be cool info. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Çnote Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 20 hours ago, Chibearsv said: To Ken’s point on marketing, I get a couple NC catalogs that have the CA rating stamped on the individual cigar photos and I’d guess that if a selection of cigars are offered on any page, the rated cigars would sell more often. Probably no other info would be necessary to create the increased demand. 100% correct in my experience. Ratings become a function of marketing. The only hedge against this is consumers that have been educated to buy to their current and prospective (future) pallettes, either with rigorous tasting on their own part or the advice of honest merchants with whom they have built a relationship. 1 hour ago, mprach024 said: There’s no harvest ratings that I’m aware of for Cuba, although that’d be cool info. Google this, I'm pretty sure there's a thread here as well. There's also harvest vs box dates, hello rabbitholes.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mprach024 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 22 minutes ago, Çnote said: Google this, I'm pretty sure there's a thread here as well. There's also harvest vs box dates, hello rabbitholes.... You remind me of my wife, give me a chore to prove your point! You Google it 😂😂😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Çnote Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 16 minutes ago, mprach024 said: You remind me of my wife, give me a chore to prove your point! You Google it 😂😂😂 You remind me of my wife, I'm not sure if I should take this as a compliment or be deeply offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mprach024 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Just now, Çnote said: You remind me of my wife, I'm not sure if I should take this as a compliment or be deeply offended. Lol depends on what week it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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