A find from grandfather's closet...

[NSXCIGAR]

43 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Not just that, mind blowing. I mean this is a box only one of which is pictured in that unpublished book and on Nino's blog posting. If the provenance can prove that the box existed before February 2013 when that blog posting was put up, I'd really start to believe it.

I mean fakers don't get the details right on Siglo VI and Esplendidos that are in every LCDH in the world. And they have obvious typos on ELs, last one I remember was RyJ "Exhibision" No. 2 for the 2000 EL.

I agree, this box would be a one of a kind (seeing as how MRN's is partial), of tremendous historical significance and rarity. I can't think of any post-Rev item that could rival its value except perhaps the Siglo XXI humidor. 

Obviously, provenance would necessarily preclude it from being created after March 2014 when that book example was published by Alex. If any box would need a full chain of custody and paper trail, this would be it. 

As I said, this would be one box where a counterfeiter would pull out all the stops. If any fake box was flawlessly copied, this would be it. 

I don't know though. It's such a obscure unicorn of a box and so unknown and difficult to authenticate I'm thinking the damn thing has a good chance of being real. If it is real, provenance should be in order ipso facto. 

[Bijan]

43 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

As I said, this would be one box where a counterfeiter would pull out all the stops. If any fake box was flawlessly copied, this would be it. 

True the greatest incentive here but while I don't know the counterfeiting business I can't imagine they're trying to sell to the Nino's and Min Ron Nee's of the world.

I'm sure you'd want to sell it on a below average auction house that wouldn't do the due diligence of Bond Roberts.

But of course this all depends on the economics of it. If you could get 10x selling to people in the know then maybe, I feel you could get most of the money from the less informed and more gullible though.

Also one wonders, flawlessly copy what? The photos in the blog post and book? Anyone doing due diligence and paying full price for this is likely going to try and consult Nino and MRN and they can check details not published and that's game over in terms of flawless copies.

Also somewhat related: anyone ever see any Band A Panatelas? CCW lists them also in 50 count packaging.

[NSXCIGAR]

35 minutes ago, Bijan said:

True the greatest incentive here but while I don't know the counterfeiting business I can't imagine they're trying to sell to the Nino's and Min Ron Nee's of the world.

I'm sure you'd want to sell it on a below average auction house that wouldn't do the due diligence of Bond Roberts.

But of course this all depends on the economics of it. If you could get 10x selling to people in the know then maybe, I feel you could get most of the money from the less informed and more gullible though.

Also one wonders, flawlessly copy what? The photos in the blog post and book? Anyone doing due diligence and paying full price for this is likely going to try and consult Nino and MRN and they can check details not published and that's game over in terms of flawless copies.

Also somewhat related: anyone ever see any Band A Panatelas? CCW lists them also in 50 count packaging.

That's something that makes me think these are very possibly authentic. Where could they be sold for top dollar? There's two respected people in the world that really know what they are. It's the rarest post-Rev item I'm aware of. Monte 6 & 7 would be a distant second and they have nowhere near the historical significance these have.

Based on the MRN photos, I suppose the bands could be duplicated with sophisticated enough software. Same with the sticker. That's all you'd need for these--bands and sticker. The box is pretty generic. 

I didn't know about these until today. I'd never noticed the MRN page at CCW (I had glanced at it in the past but didn't recall this.) The MRN sample is buried in CCW and who knows Nino? If these went up for auction yesterday could they fetch $10,000? $20,000? Maybe. Enough to justify making fakes. I honestly believe if real and authenticated and understood they should be worth many multiples of that. But $20,000 is a nice take if that's what they got. 

As far as the Panetelas in 50s listed in CCW I don't see it specifically noting them having band A in any particular format. I read it as the Lanceros, CE and Panetelas simply having had band A at some point, which would be a logical assumption since all three existed in 1969 and band A was in use.

[Nino]

That was the first 1969 Cohiba box I managed to find and while it is extremely rare - produced only ca. 6-9 months with that band - it is not the only one I found.
All are in MRN's collection now.

Here is the back story with many pictures of boxes & bands :

http://flyingcigar.de/startseite/the-story-behind-the-1970s-diplomatic-cohiba-50-and-100-count-lancero-boxes/

[Wookie]

Your gentleman friend, Mr.Min Ron Nee sounds like an otherworldly human being. Gracious, tenacious, successful {obviously). What a human treasure must be this person. I cannot imagine sipping vintage Krug, Cristal, Tattinger etc with vintage cigars on a regular basis. So humble that we know nothing of his personal history, though profound it must be. 

[Nino]

1 hour ago, Wookie said:

Your gentleman friend, Mr.Min Ron Nee sounds like an otherworldly human being. Gracious, tenacious, successful {obviously). What a human treasure must be this person. I cannot imagine sipping vintage Krug, Cristal, Tattinger etc with vintage cigars on a regular basis. So humble that we know nothing of his personal history, though profound it must be. 

Maybe this blog post will shed some light on the MRN private person.

I can only say I'm happy to know him and call him a friend. ..

http://flyingcigar.de/startseite/min-ron-nee-the-man-behind-the-book-and-second-edition-details/

[Bijan]

Everyone involved with CCs owes MRN a lot. CCW my favourite online resource might not exist or be as complete without his book as reference.

At the same time if there is one criticism I'd make it is the current edition of his book being out of print and even more the future edition being limited to 2000 copies.

I don't mean to dictate to another what they should do with their life's work but it makes no sense to me to limit the publication of an informative book.

I do not complain about the price just the availability.

I can only wonder if a life of collecting exceedingly rare things has made him want his life's crowning achievement to be a rare species as well.

[Wookie]

3 hours ago, Nino said:

Maybe this blog post will shed some light on the MRN private person.

I can only say I'm happy to know him and call him a friend. ..

http://flyingcigar.de/startseite/min-ron-nee-the-man-behind-the-book-and-second-edition-details/

Would be interesting to know even more about the man himself. Seems like a super quiet version of Sir David Tang. Almost mysterious, complex. Reticent to share sensitive information but very involved at the same time. You are lucky to have a friend like this. 

[Habana Mike]

Met Dave at a herf in LA fall of 2019. Interesting yet odd fellow. Not sure why one would say restore. He and Min Ron Nee both speak of dampening the wrapper to improve the burn.

Try it some time on a vintage stick. Many threads about the process here on FOH.

[NSXCIGAR]

16 hours ago, Nino said:

That was the first 1969 Cohiba box I managed to find and while it is extremely rare - produced only ca. 6-9 months with that band - it is not the only one I found.
All are in MRN's collection now.

You mention a partial box in Canada--I'm assuming the East Bloc box you mention is the one above from the Hungarian general. So we really only have 2 confirmed and none intact except the OP. 

[Habana Mike]

8 hours ago, Wookie said:

Your gentleman friend, Mr.Min Ron Nee sounds like an otherworldly human being. Gracious, tenacious, successful {obviously). What a human treasure must be this person. I cannot imagine sipping vintage Krug, Cristal, Tattinger etc with vintage cigars on a regular basis. So humble that we know nothing of his personal history, though profound it must be. 

MRN used to post under a pseudonym at an essentially retired forum. http://internationalcigarclub.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=155

Good stuff if you can access it.

[Habana Mike]

On 4/15/2021 at 4:48 PM, Nino said:

Many cigars & boxes mixed up here.

Interesting to see a 30+ yr old cigar in cellophane being "pristine" after so many years, no yellowing, no colouring..... what a "miracle" !!

🙂

 

 

 

Hmmmm ... Certainly not 70's. It only existed in 1969 for a short time. Never seen that band on top with the additional saying.

Perhaps they were stored airtight? I believe you also know Wayne.

He was discussing the ERDM Epicures and the SLR Serie B, both discontinued in the '70s.

[Nino]

5 hours ago, Habana Mike said:

Perhaps they were stored airtight? I believe you also know Wayne.

He was discussing the ERDM Epicures and the SLR Serie B, both discontinued in the '70s.

Yes, I do ... LOL that is pre-historic 🙂

It was through ICC and "Wayne" back then that I was invited by MRN to visit him during one of my Hong Kong flights ...

Not sure airtight storage would prevent oils from leaving a trace/stains on the cellophane.

[Nino]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

You mention a partial box in Canada--I'm assuming the East Bloc box you mention is the one above from the Hungarian general. So we really only have 2 confirmed and none intact except the OP. 

Yes, that partial box from Canada belongs to a friend  - I introduced him to MRN and during a visit to HK he took the box along for MRN to take pictures of it for the second edition.
It was a 50 box with 31 Lanceros left.
I also have the b&w picture of Mr B. the Chief Protocol officer for the Canadian gvmt. with the Cuban ambassador.

I'll check my hard disk for pictures and attach them here.

PS : Found the original mail from my Canadian friend  and how he found them, some useful details here :

"A friend came over with a box of lanceros that had been given to his father by the Cubans - these were diplomatic gifts, my friends father was chief protocol officer for the Canadian Government and received them from the Cuban Ambassador in Canada in the early 70's.

He brought the box over today, I immediately said fake, but the design was not even close to trying to copy the cohiba bands we know so I got suspicious.

I then pulled out MRN's book and found them. First design extremely rare made in 1969.
Eureka, what a rush, felt like the Antique Road Show.

I was surprised when I found the bands in MRN book and then shock came in when he described then as extremely rare bands, let alone the cigars. For a collector I would think these have value given there scarcity and they are the first cohiba cigars made with the first cohiba band and box.

According to MRN, this was the first design in 1969, they are extremely hard to find since this design only lasted about 6 months.
There were two sizes of this band produced, these are the larger ones, not as rare as the smaller one, but still extremly rare. The cigars are in excellent shape, not dry at all. I do not know how they were stored, but from the look of them they were well kept.

These had to be made in 1969 if I am not mistaken since that was the only year the band was used."

Here some pictures

 

 

 

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

Excellent, @Nino. 

So the Canadian box is the only known box of Lanceros. The cigars look absolutely spectacular. Could have been made yesterday. The outside of the Canadian box looks much nicer than both the Hungarian box and the OP box. Varnish and wood looks great. Perhaps this is due to them being Lanceros and not CE.

And it appears all these bands are much higher quality than all the other images I've seen of standard band A. These are clearly not paper and have a vivid gold layer and rich black background. If I'm understanding correctly, not even MRN had ever seen the band on an actual cigar before until the Hungarian box. I'd be interested to know the source of the image that appears in the Encyclopaedia. 

These appear to have all been given out by Fidel personally to high-level diplomats or generals in 1969 or early 1970. Provenance should be quite verifiable in these cases with the exact person receiving them being notable. In the case of the Hungarian box, a record of Fidel traveling to Hungary at that time should be obtainable, as would the Canadian ambassador's trip to Cuba. In this case, there's even a photo of the ambassador given the cigars with the person who owned them. That's the kind of provenance one needs for these and would be needed for the OP box. 

The fact that there are now two confirmed boxes increases the chances that the OP's could be real. They look indistinguishable from the two you've authenticated which would be very difficult even for a master counterfeiter only working off of the picture on CCW, and what are the chances they would have seen your blog posts? I guess it really doesn't matter--all these boxes should have airtight provenance given their rarity and the status of any individual who would have received them. 

[Nino]

3 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

Excellent, @Nino. 

Thanks - my pleasure !

So the Canadian box is the only known box of Lanceros. The cigars look absolutely spectacular. Could have been made yesterday. The outside of the Canadian box looks much nicer than both the Hungarian box and the OP box. Varnish and wood looks great. Perhaps this is due to them being Lanceros and not CE.

No - it is not the only known box of Lanceros. I found a 100 count box of Lanceros in Amsterdam as well as you can read from my background story blogpost link :

http://flyingcigar.de/startseite/the-story-behind-the-1970s-diplomatic-cohiba-50-and-100-count-lancero-boxes/

And it appears all these bands are much higher quality than all the other images I've seen of standard band A. These are clearly not paper and have a vivid gold layer and rich black background. If I'm understanding correctly, not even MRN had ever seen the band on an actual cigar before until the Hungarian box. I'd be interested to know the source of the image that appears in the Encyclopaedia. 

That is correct. I can ask MRN for that source but I'd be quite certain it came from HSA. I will ask him to review this thread and he might give his opinion, no guarantees
I add some close ups of the bands from the same period - CE's from a marble jar.

These appear to have all been given out by Fidel personally to high-level diplomats or generals in 1969 or early 1970. Provenance should be quite verifiable in these cases with the exact person receiving them being notable. In the case of the Hungarian box, a record of Fidel traveling to Hungary at that time should be obtainable, as would the Canadian ambassador's trip to Cuba. In this case, there's even a photo of the ambassador given the cigars with the person who owned them. That's the kind of provenance one needs for these and would be needed for the OP box. 

That is correct. As I commented earlier I have a black & white picture of Mr. B., the Chief Protocol officer of Canada with the Cuban Ambassador in Canada at the time.

For the box I won at the public auction in Leipzig there are black & white pictures of Fidel and Che plus the card of the Cuban Minister of Trade at the time.

Another marble jar with Coronas Extra that I found in Russia came with pictures & Politburo passport of the Soviet Minister for General Building and nuclear/defence at the time, a twice decorated "Hero of Socialist Labour".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Afanasyev_(politician)

The fact that there are now two confirmed boxes increases the chances that the OP's could be real. They look indistinguishable from the two you've authenticated which would be very difficult even for a master counterfeiter only working off of the picture on CCW, and what are the chances they would have seen your blog posts? I guess it really doesn't matter--all these boxes should have airtight provenance given their rarity and the status of any individual who would have received them. 

Again - there are more known boxes than just two. All that I found were passed on to MRN. That were 3 boxes plus one marble jar - plus the Canadian box that was photographed during a visit to Hong Kong.

Some years ago I found a video on You Tube with a large collection of pictures from my blog posted by a guy from Turkey ... I had to file a copyright claim to have it removed. Some people just steal pictures which is why I had to add a watermark on those I consider important.