vaccines v herd immunity

[T.52]

Anyone smoke some good cuban cigars lately?  

[djrey]

2 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

Please do not spread misinformation - there is no evidence the vaccine has killed anyone. A few have had extraordinarily rare side effects, which is why they require you remain for observation immediately after getting it. 

I’m not saying there’s zero risk, but it’s much lower than from COVID  

 

This entire virus and ensuing hysteria has run on misinformation and blatantly false statistics. I firmly stand by the fore-mentioned reasons of why people may be hesitant to get the vaccine, which is what you asked for. You don’t have to agree with it, but you must respect it. 

[djrey]

5 minutes ago, T.52 said:

Anyone smoke some good cuban cigars lately?  

For real, these topics have become too much. Oh well, no hard feelings at the end of the day. I’m smoking a pretty good 2013 Monte 2 right now! 🤣

[mprach024]

2 hours ago, Thatsze said:

If you want everyone to be vaxxed that's your right, but then dont only allow vaccinated to go out. When your "rights" infringe on my rights we have a problem.

I'm being cheeky here but the point is that this is hypocritical, it's a problem when my rights infringe on yours but not when yours infringe on mine?

You cant allow people certain rights only if they do what you, the government, or "the people" want, otherwise those would not be rights but privileges.

Get the jab, don’t get the jab.  I really don’t care.  Just let me get back to my life.  You can forego the vax and continue to quarantine and hide.  You don’t get the same freedoms as me because you can’t be a menace to the society of people that CANT get vaccinated.  Pretty simple.  You have the right to not get it.  Agree 100%.  You do not have the right to risk others lives because of your beliefs or lack of.  

That’s no different than saying my religion requires me to steal from people....so it’s freedom of religion protection.  Good luck with that argument.  

 

1 hour ago, T.52 said:

Anyone smoke some good cuban cigars lately?  

 

1 hour ago, djrey said:

For real, these topics have become too much. Oh well, no hard feelings at the end of the day. I’m smoking a pretty good 2013 Monte 2 right now! 🤣

Plenty of other threads for that information and discussion.  Don’t like the topic don’t read the thread, pretty simple.  

[Hammer Smokin']

Thread is good example why society will be dealing with covid for much longer than necessary. 

[El Presidente]

19 minutes ago, FrancisK7 said:

The risk 0 does not exist, there was always a chance, and in spite of it, we still all need to get vaccinated, because the alternative is worse. Much worse.

We had a 55 year old pass away yesterday 4 days after an AZ injection ( massive clot, no underlying conditions)75 year old the day prior.  Doctors/Govt saying you have more chance of winning lotto.....seriously if there were this many "lotto winners" then I would be buying a ticket daily. 

We have no Covid in the community in Oz. Right now, why would you risk an AZ shot in this country?. If covid were rampant in the community you would roll the dice...but it isn't. 

 

[GolfT3]

There is a lot of interesting decision calculus going on right now. Unfortunately, this logic holds true as long as you’re willing to maintain all current travel and business restrictions to keep the virus away and are ready to reimpose those insanely strict Aussie  lockdowns if/when it pops back up. COVID was killing over 3k a day in the US, makes two blood clot issues seem more like lottery odds but that’s based on US numbers.

7 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

We had a 55 year old pass away yesterday 4 days after an AZ injection ( massive clot, no underlying conditions)75 year old the day prior.  Doctors/Govt saying you have more chance of winning lotto.....seriously if there were this many "lotto winners" then I would be buying a ticket daily. 

We have no Covid in the community in Oz. Right now, why would you risk an AZ shot in this country?. If covid were rampant in the communtiy you would roll the dice...but it isn't. 

 

 

[El Presidente]

Just now, FrancisK7 said:

In our case we have to vaccinate everybody as quickly as possible while keeping an eye on the risks vs benefit analysis and re-evaluating as we go if we need to. 

I thoroughly respect that and understand. 

In our country we have zero community cases right now. 

The 55 year old who died yesterday from AZ vaccine (and the others) had pretty close to  zero chance of catching covid in Oz. 

They followed the government, medical advice to protect themselves against something that is a non issue locally ......and are today pushing up daisies.  

Within Australia, people are saying "WTF?" Why the rush? Why not wait a little longer for Phizer or AZ MKII

 

[MrBirdman]

Yeah to be clear the AZ vaccine clearly has issues - I should’ve restricted my comments to the US, where we don’t use it. 

[El Presidente]

Just now, FrancisK7 said:

What is the living situation in Australia now? 

Businesses, restaurants and schools all operating normally as usual?

Are your borders closed?

At the rate things are spreading in India you can bet new variants will develop in the soup, and spread from there. Canada has banned all incoming flights from India for at least a month.

The risks vs benefits are not the same as us if you guys aren't fighting overfilled hospitals and 3000-4000 new cases per day like here.

 

Businesses, restaurants and schools all operating normally as usual?

All operating as usual. Business is booming. 

Are your borders closed?

Domestic borders are open. International closed / limited requiring hotel quarantine. 

We are currently not in the awful situation others find themselves in. I can understand the local hesitancy as to use a colloquial term, "it doesn't pass the sniff test". 

To explain, the average punter is asking " I have zero chance of catching covid or a 1 in 300,000 chance of taking AZ and dying of a clot. Maybe I should wait a little longer". 

[El Presidente]

12 minutes ago, FrancisK7 said:

Denmark asked themselves the same question and decided to give AZ the finger, so the question is legitimate.

In your current situation it's easily understandable to ask "why take the risk?" too.

I imagine the media coverage of an AZ vaccine death will result in people waiting it out on their own without any government intervention.

AZ hasn't been approved (here) for under 50's at this point.  That had people already raising eyebrows 

When the problems surfaced,  the Govt and medical community started rolling out the "Lotto" comparison. 

The problem is people appear to be croaking it on a daily/every other day basis and it is not matching up with the Govt/medical line. 

There is no pressing need here to take an unecessary risk. Who wants to be the fit 55 year who won AZ lotto? 

if Covid was back in the community here then people would reassess. 

[Glass Half Full]

Just one opinion, and not a doctor:  If Pfizer and Moderna are available -- and no downsides reported -- why would anyone say "No"?  It allows you to re-engage in life, albeit with care, but not with worry that you'll be the cause of other people's deaths.  Maybe this is a US-centric view but I do not understand why anyone is not accepting proven, life-saving, low-to-no risk vaccines in the US.  It's not a political issue; it's simply looking out for the whole of the community, IMO. 

[porkchop]

22 minutes ago, Glass Half Full said:

Just one opinion, and not a doctor:  If Pfizer and Moderna are available -- and no downsides reported -- why would anyone say "No"?  It allows you to re-engage in life, albeit with care, but not with worry that you'll be the cause of other people's deaths.  Maybe this is a US-centric view but I do not understand why anyone is not accepting proven, life-saving, low-to-no risk vaccines in the US.  It's not a political issue; it's simply looking out for the whole of the community, IMO. 

The Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19. 

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.

[Glass Half Full]

Yes, but the vaccines allow us to enjoy life again.  ...I don't understand the folks who say we should open everything and not wear masks -- and yet are anti-vaccine?  How does that make sense?  Millions upon millions of people have taken Pfizer and Moderna and have had absolutely no long-term consequences.  What's the downside?  ...And how is it worth it compared to the lives lost?  (I'm stopping now as it's become such a silly issue in the U.S.) 

[porkchop]

6 minutes ago, Glass Half Full said:

Yes, but the vaccines allow us to enjoy life again.  ...I don't understand the folks who say we should open everything and not wear masks -- and yet are anti-vaccine?  How does that make sense?  Millions upon millions of people have taken Pfizer and Moderna and have had absolutely no long-term consequences.  What's the downside?  ...And how is it worth it compared to the lives lost?  (I'm stopping now as it's become such a silly issue in the U.S.) 

Are you being purposefully obtuse?

[Ginseng]

20 minutes ago, porkchop said:

The Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.

Emphasis mine. It is technical fact that a drug under Emergency Use Authorization is not formally approved. However, under these circumstances, the technical distinction is one that is outweighed by practical need driven by the suffering and sheer number of excess deaths due to Covid. And as for the "may" part. That assertion is demonstrably false and a statement that I would consider willful disinformation.

Covid Vaccine Protection of Infection and Illness

Coronavirus Cases and Deaths - Global

[porkchop]

6 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

And as for the "may" part. That assertion is demonstrably false and a statement that I would consider willful disinformation.

So the CDC, Pfizer, and Moderna are willfully disseminating disinformation? Those lines are from the official fact sheets.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/eua/index.html

 

[La_Tigre]

Anybody take a look at India and Brazil lately....building mass funeral pyres.

 

Vaccine requirement seems like  infringement. But as at work in the hospital, you may refuse the flu vaccine as your right, but are required to wear a mask to protect other’s rights including your customers. There are many here that will also argue masking as an infringement. It just lends to the snowflake appeal of me-centricism... When it all falls out, so many are simply not concerned with the well being of their fellow man. This is predominately in Western culture and to the point of absurdity. Wearing a mask is one of the most inert things I can think of being required to do. Even less so than stopping at red lights...but here we are politicizing on high to the almighty (or lack of) about the infringement...

There has been a huge uptick in hospitalizations in the younger demographics, too. Is this the UK variant’s doing? Still trying to figure that out as well. 

As to OZ, no argument toward the current situation and taking a shot that can cause a rare clotting disorder. But do not expect business as usual if international commerce/travel is closed. People are anxious to get out after all. The AZ shot has less chance of causing clotting disorders and thrombocytopenia than the use of birth control. That’s pretty low. But then with no risk reward, why not wait for one of the non-adenovirus based shots instead of the J&J or AZ.

Some of this is just fear mongering; yes, it’s happening on both sides of the issue. It’s like “don’t play rugby because I’ve heard of someone never walking again because their patella ruptured...” There are risks in everything. But if you win the AZ lotto as @El Presidente stated, well, um, yeah that is quits for you.

[rcarlson]

37 minutes ago, Glass Half Full said:

Yes, but the vaccines allow us to enjoy life again.  ...I don't understand the folks who say we should open everything and not wear masks -- and yet are anti-vaccine?  How does that make sense?  Millions upon millions of people have taken Pfizer and Moderna and have had absolutely no long-term consequences.  What's the downside?  ...And how is it worth it compared to the lives lost?  (I'm stopping now as it's become such a silly issue in the U.S.) 

Huh?  Because both make their own determination of what risk they are willing to accept.  

"Long term?"  

[Chas.Alpha]

I received my 2nd shot of Pfizer a couple of weeks ago. One surprising side effect is that I started to grow another one, and the li’l fella is already bigger than the original! 
 

My wife seems pleased with these developments... 😳

[Chas.Alpha]

4 hours ago, djrey said:

For real, these topics have become too much. Oh well, no hard feelings at the end of the day. I’m smoking a pretty good 2013 Monte 2 right now! 🤣

That’s the best you got? 😀

[Monterey]

To me, I don't fear the worse.  But I know of many cigar smokers who after getting covid, were unable to enjoy cigars for up to 6 months.  Their ability to taste fully may be impacted for a very long time.

So I got the shots.  And will enjoy my cigars with my full taste buds intact!

Basing my decision on my cigar habit proves my dedication to this hobby. 

[djrey]

23 minutes ago, Chas.Alpha said:

That’s the best you got? 😀

Oh those beauties are coming! Don’t you worry! 😉

[mprach024]

3 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Why not wait a little longer for Phizer

Logical, if Covid was not a threat in my community and I was ok with whatever restrictions imposed, I totally get why one would wait. 

1 hour ago, La_Tigre said:

There has been a huge uptick in hospitalizations in the younger demographics, too

Younger people aren’t vaccinated yet? 🤷‍♂️

Speculating

[Meklown]

11 hours ago, Kitchen said:

It's all about incentives. 

I feel the same in this case. Similar to what prez said about aussie, the number of cases in HK is also close to 0 / single digit daily (excluding imported infections).

For example, in HK there was a spike of vaccine sign-ups when it was announced that restaurants with fully vacc-ed staff could open for longer hours than what is allowed under the current restrictions / fully vacc-ed diners can dine in groups of 6 as compared to 4 currently.

The next big incentive is going to be travel-related. The HK-Singapore travel bubble recently announced included a rule that you can only board a flight from HK if you are vaccinated. Otherwise, you gotta go through the normal route which requires a 14-day quarantine. Now Singapore is not a hugely popular travel destination but if you extend the same rules to Japan or Taiwan I am sure half the population will be signing up tomorrow. 

There isn't enough incentive (rewards) now as compared to the unknown health risks of taking the vaccine.