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10 hours ago, BEVOSREVENGE said:

FYI here is another fact, not a single N95 mask on my plane flight back from Colorado today (not TSA, not airline crew, not passengers).  Plenty of other things called masks (you know the ones that do nothing but make the timid feel good).

 

This is something I've yet to wrap my head around. I just dont understand why EVERYONE is completely content to play pretend with these things. 

The cloth masks that most people wear and the way the wear them provide almost no protection, from any virus, that's ever existed. Even the CDC states a roughly 30% efficacy rate, even when worn properly, by both parties. Most people don't even wear them right! Nose hanging out, Thick beard (Me, it ain't n95 rated), improper fit. We're going to look back at these masks like the ridiculous bird masks the docs wore during the plague. In practice, they generate roughly the same level of protection. ZERO

If you paid me to be your body guard, but I told you I could only stop 1 out of every 3 attacks you would face, would you still pay me?

If they made a boarding announcement at the gate that the plane had a 70% chance of going down, would you still fly?

When did a 70% failure rate become a "success"? 

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Stop the BS and get the Jab.

good post. i am old enough (just) to remember, as a young kid, the screaming and outrage when seats belts became mandatory (i'm sure if you told a lot of young people about the resistance to wearing s

Do you enjoy your social security checks or will you in the future?( I never will) Cause I sure love giving a couple hundred bucks a paycheck to the least personally responsible generation in history.

34 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

This is something I've yet to wrap my head around. I just dont understand why EVERYONE is completely content to play pretend with these things. 

The cloth masks that most people wear and the way the wear them provide almost no protection, from any virus, that's ever existed. Even the CDC states a roughly 30% efficacy rate, even when worn properly, by both parties. Most people don't even wear them right! Nose hanging out, Thick beard (Me, it ain't n95 rated), improper fit. We're going to look back at these masks like the ridiculous bird masks the docs wore during the plague. In practice, they generate roughly the same level of protection. ZERO

If you paid me to be your body guard, but I told you I could only stop 1 out of every 3 attacks you would face, would you still pay me?

If they made a boarding announcement at the gate that the plane had a 70% chance of going down, would you still fly?

When did a 70% failure rate become a "success"? 

It's better than nothing - which is how most people live their entire lives.  Want a Mercedes?  Have only 30% of the price ? Okay, a Honda will have to do.  People don't say, "No Merc, I'll walk."

You may say a mask is different, because it's an inconvenience rather than something you want.  Well, if you are going into battle and all they have is paper-based body armour that stops one round out of three, would you wear one or not?  "But a bullet will kill me..." and we're back to mortality debates etc.

Also, even if we accept that a mask is 30% effective, presumably it's 30% effective in isolation.  What is the effectiveness combined with hygiene, social distancing and other measures?  In any case, 30% effectiveness simplistically still means 30% fewer infections and 30% fewer eventual mortalities.  Pretty sure India will take that now.

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9 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

What we do know is the very vast majority of people vaccinated do not get serious symptoms, they do not show up in emergency rooms or require intubation, but we do know for a fact they could still be infected and could still transmit the disease. 

 

Again, using the numbers (which I agree are dubious because it's based on self-reporting, among other things), "vast majority" is a vast overstatement.  It's as about as close to non-existent as one could reasonably imagine.  If this ain't it, what number is required before the masks come off or you let people decide for themselves where they congregate?   

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6 minutes ago, SirVantes said:

It's better than nothing - which is how most people live their entire lives.  Want a Mercedes?  Have only 30% of the price ? Okay, a Honda will have to do.  People don't say, "No Merc, I'll walk."

You may say a mask is different, because it's an inconvenience rather than something you want.  Well, if you are going into battle and all they have is paper-based body armour that stops one round out of three, would you wear one or not?  "But a bullet will kill me..." and we're back to mortality debates etc.

Also, even if we accept that a mask is 30% effective, presumably it's 30% effective in isolation.  What is the effectiveness combined with hygiene, social distancing and other measures?  In any case, 30% effectiveness simplistically still means 30% fewer infections and 30% fewer eventual mortalities.  Pretty sure India will take that now.

"Better than Nothing" should be the official Slogan for the entire response to this thing. 

Better than nothing, but not much in many cases. 

30% is BEST CASE, both people wearing their cloth masks securely

I get what your saying, I'm not an anti masker or anti vaxer. I wear mine without bitching(though I do hate it) and am patiently waiting to get my second shot, but our reactions to this virus have been extremely illogical. 

30% has never been acceptable for the safety on a gun, for a seatbelt, for an airplane, for anything really. But all of a sudden, now it is? 

"I'm protecting my grandmother by wearing a mask when I see her." No, you arent, you placing here at greatly elevated risk. If you really loved her and weren't just "going through the motions" you would shave your face bare, wear an n95 mask, and a face shield and get tested before you went to visit her. THAT would be caring, protecting, participating in the greater good. 

Slapping on a Bandana that you can see through is playing pretend. We're all pretending to care about our fellow man right now. If this pandemic has proven anything its the we clearly and demonstrably don't give a flying F about each other. We pretend to do, sure, but we don't. 

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5 hours ago, rcarlson said:

Again, using the numbers (which I agree are dubious because it's best on self-reporting among other things), "vast majority" is a vast overstatement.  It's as about as close to non-existent as one could reasonably imagine.  If this ain't it, what number is required before the masks come off or you let people decide for themselves where they congregate?   

I could be mistaken, but it seems you may be trying to extrapolate from one metric to justify a different metric. I don't think the percentages indicated really tell us how many of those people are actually carriers of the virus, which is what I think you are trying to get at. Additionally, I'm not sure that even if you have been vaccinated that you would want to let your guard down and let yourself be infected. Surely, you would have protection so you may not get terribly sick, but I personally would rather not tempt faith. Could be just me.

 

7 hours ago, Corylax18 said:

This is something I've yet to wrap my head around. I just dont understand why EVERYONE is completely content to play pretend with these things. 

The cloth masks that most people wear and the way the wear them provide almost no protection, from any virus, that's ever existed. Even the CDC states a roughly 30% efficacy rate, even when worn properly, by both parties. Most people don't even wear them right! Nose hanging out, Thick beard (Me, it ain't n95 rated), improper fit. We're going to look back at these masks like the ridiculous bird masks the docs wore during the plague. In practice, they generate roughly the same level of protection. ZERO

If you paid me to be your body guard, but I told you I could only stop 1 out of every 3 attacks you would face, would you still pay me?

If they made a boarding announcement at the gate that the plane had a 70% chance of going down, would you still fly?

When did a 70% failure rate become a "success"? 

I use a KN95 mask against my skin, and a 4 layer cloth mask over that when I go out. I find the KN95 masks look pretty silly, and early last year I had some custom made masks that cover from the bridge of my nose, over my chin, to the top of my neck. The KN95 masks are pretty close to the N95 in terms of effectiveness, and since there is no valve they filter air both inward and outward. The valved N95 masks seem to allow unfiltered air outward from the person wearing them, so I was not keen on those.

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4 minutes ago, Corylax18 said:

"Better than Nothing" should be the official Slogan for the entire response to this thing. 

Better than nothing, but not much in many cases. 

30% is BEST CASE, both people wearing their cloth masks securely

I get what your saying, I'm not an anti masker or anti vaxer. I wear mine without bitching(though I do hate it) and am patiently waiting to get my second shot, but our reactions to this virus have been extremely illogical. 

30% has never been acceptable for the safety on a gun, for a seatbelt, for an airplane, for anything really. But all of a sudden, now it is? 

"I'm protecting my grandmother by wearing a mask when I see her." No, you arent, you placing here at greatly elevated risk. If you really loved her and weren't just "going through the motions" you would shave your face bare, wear an n95 mask, and a face shield and get tested before you went to visit her. THAT would be caring, protecting, participating in the greater good. 

Slapping on a Bandana that you can see through is playing pretend. We're all pretending to care about our fellow man right now. If this pandemic has proven anything its the we clearly and demonstrably don't give a flying F about each other. We pretend to do, sure, but we don't. 

Yeah, I have to agree with you that the mask situation is far from ideal.  But there's the possibility that it is genuinely the best of a bad lot.  N95 masks would be better, but they to have to be worn properly, and how many people will wind up actually do that?  Then you factor in the inevitable panic buying, the shortages/hoarding, the fakes (essentially the PPE situation in the community at large) and you're likely no better off than the lowest common denominator that you can sustain.

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For those that are Anti Vax, Anti Mask, Anti Lockdown.  I seriously am asking for an explanation so I can better at least try to understand your logic - 

What exactly....IS your plan?  I’ve yet to hear it.  I’ve heard fear mongering and doubts, I understand both of those emotions.  But what are you suggesting we do?  

Open everything up?  Dont restrict?  Don’t vax?  Don’t mask?  Tough titties to those that die - ‘Merica?  Please help me understand.

 

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4 hours ago, FrancisK7 said:

You just made my point, thank you! 

Really happy to be of service.

Can we say with any degree of certainty that vaccinated people are unlikely to spread COVID to unvaccinated individuals?

"The emerging data confirms what many of us thought would be the case—that not only do the vaccines stop symptomatic COVID, but they also make it highly unlikely that someone can even be infected at all.  I think the preponderance of the evidence supports the fact that vaccinated individuals are not able to spread the virus."

"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real-world data," CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told Rachel Maddow on Monday, March 29. Walensky was describing the results of a new CDC study of vaccinated Americans, which found that they not only had very high resistance to COVID-19, but also to asymptomatic infections of the SARS-CoV-2 virus – and, by extension, are very unlikely to spread it to other people.

Here is something to lighten the mood around here on this subject.

https://twitter.com/BarrettWilson6/status/1386914904997867522?s=20

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6 hours ago, mprach024 said:

For those that are Anti Vax, Anti Mask, Anti Lockdown.  I seriously am asking for an explanation so I can better at least try to understand your logic - 

What exactly....IS your plan?  I’ve yet to hear it.  I’ve heard fear mongering and doubts, I understand both of those emotions.  But what are you suggesting we do?  

Open everything up?  Dont restrict?  Don’t vax?  Don’t mask?  Tough titties to those that die - ‘Merica?  Please help me understand.

 

I don't consider myself to be in the "Anti" anything camp. But I do think the reaction this virus elicited, world wide, was embarrassing for our species.  

Politicians on one side holding unmasked press conference's in China towns decrying the damage of racist border closures. Then a month later complaining that those in power didn't lock down the borders soon enough. 

Luke warm "lockdowns" like we saw in the states, absolutely no coordination between the governments of massive countries, childish in-fighting, billions wasted to prop up massive companies and well off individuals while the people that actually needed help where largely ignored. 3rd, 4th, 5th waves, 2 years (maybe more) of constantly changing new rules and restrictions. We've greatly damaged society/social norms, that's nearly impossible to quantify. The nanny state's grip has gotten even tighter. 

I'll finish with this. If the last year or so is truly the best we can do, as a species, then we're toast. I don't see the species lasting past two more generations. 

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5 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

I could be mistaken, but it seems you may be trying to extrapolate from one metric to justify a different metric. I don't think the percentages indicated really tell us how many of those people are actually carriers of the virus, which is what I think you are trying to get at. Additionally, I'm not sure that even if you have been vaccinated that you would want to let your guard down and let yourself be infected. Surely, you would have protection so you may not get terribly sick, but I personally would rather not tempt faith. Could be just me.

I don't disagree.  I was responding to the post that said the numbers made a case of some kind.  It relates to the post-vaccination mask wearing discussion of "facts" rather than "beliefs" that occurred before you posted.  But question to you was serious one: what is required to demonstrate that people should be free to choose whether to wear masks or not for themselves in your opinion?      

 

4 hours ago, mprach024 said:

For those that are Anti Vax, Anti Mask, Anti Lockdown.  I seriously am asking for an explanation so I can better at least try to understand your logic - 

What exactly....IS your plan?  I’ve yet to hear it.  I’ve heard fear mongering and doubts, I understand both of those emotions.  But what are you suggesting we do?  

Open everything up?  Dont restrict?  Don’t vax?  Don’t mask?  Tough titties to those that die - ‘Merica?  Please help me understand.

 

I think I'd favor opening up and no mask mandates when the vaccine is available to all high risk groups. Not sure where we are with that.  But much like whether to permit cigar smoking at your place, let the owner decide whether or not to impose mask restrictions and let the individual decide what their risk tolerance is in choosing where to congregate.  'Merica is always a good option.

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53 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

I use a KN95 mask against my skin, and a 4 layer cloth mask over that when I go out. I find the KN95 masks look pretty silly, and early last year I had some custom made masks that cover from the bridge of my nose, over my chin, to the top of my neck. The KN95 masks are pretty close to the N95 in terms of effectiveness, and since there is no valve they filter air both inward and outward. The valved N95 masks seem to allow unfiltered air outward from the person wearing them, so I was not keen on those.

You're in a very small minority. I've travelled all over the country during the last year. If I had a dollar for every person I saw taking things to this level (arguably the level they should be at) I might have enough money for an airport beer. 

If I had a dollar for every person I saw wearing a cloth mask, incorrectly, I'd be retired and shopping for beach front property right now.

I'll be the first to admit, I've been playing pretend, I Have a full beard and I wear a mask from the Bellagio Hotel. Because its suede lined and doesn't catch my beard. Its super comfy, even bearable on 4 hour flight. But its completely worthless at preventing the spread of any virus, especially with my facial hair. 

But I'm supposed to feel all great about myself? "Im doing my part?"  BS, its all lip service. 

I don't have kids, I live alone. I quarantined after every trip I took. Because i knew the "prevention measures" I was taking during the trip wouldn't prevent a damn thing. I didnt (and still dont) particularly care about contracting it, but I'm still willing(for now) to be a part of society, wear a mask and get vaccinated. 

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4 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

what is required to demonstrate that people should be free to choose whether to wear masks or not for themselves in your opinion?

For me personally, my opinion is to wear the thing until the public health concern has been abated via either eradication of the virus itself, treatment is available to cause the death rates in EVERYONE to be at level consistent with common flu, vaccination levels or herd immunity are high enough that community spread has stopped.

Just curious, if there was only a .005% chance that today when I walked outside, not wearing a mask could cause someone their life, why would I not wear one?  Is it such a disposition?  

 

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8 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

I think I'd favor opening up and no mask mandates when the vaccine is available to all high risk groups. Not sure where we are with that.  But much like whether to permit cigar smoking at your place, let the owner decide whether or not to impose mask restrictions and let the individual decide what their risk tolerance is in choosing where to congregate.  'Merica is always a good option.

I can't support this universally, because people cant be trusted to act like adults, but I agree this would be the perfect scenario if we could handle it. I just don't think we can, across the country.

I was in Mississippi a month ago. Things are "back to normal" there, for the most part. People were walking around grocery stores, hotels and basketball stadiums without a mask on. Lots of them. Have we heard about a massive spike in cases in MS over the last month?

Mississippi is extremely rural though, Jackson is the biggest town and its barely a city. I don't think this same tactic would work in New York State, or the big cities in Texas. It seems to be working fine in some places though. 

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4 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

I think I'd favor opening up and no mask mandates when the vaccine is available to all high risk groups. Not sure where we are with that.  But much like whether to permit cigar smoking at your place, let the owner decide whether or not to impose mask restrictions and let the individual decide what their risk tolerance is in choosing where to congregate.  'Merica is always a good option.

And for those that can’t get vaccines (immunodeficient, children)?  Where do we put them?  Just because you don’t want to put a piece of cloth over your face?  This is where I fall down on the civil liberties debate.  Not saying there’s not a debate, it’s a great one, it’s just where I take the opposing side.

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4 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

For me personally, my opinion is to wear the thing until the public health concern has been abated via either eradication of the virus itself, treatment is available to cause the death rates in EVERYONE to be at level consistent with common flu, vaccination levels or herd immunity are high enough that community spread has stopped.

Just curious, if there was only a .005% chance that today when I walked outside, not wearing a mask could cause someone their life, why would I not wear one?  Is it such a disposition?  

 

Here's the issue with the pro-mask argument.  When Covid began, the science behind mask wearing was based on the mask being: 

(a) an N95 to N99

(b) properly fitted

(c) worn on a clean shaven face


What percentage of mask wearers would you say check all of those boxes? Maybe 1%, but most wear a homemade mask, spandex & lycra mask, surgical mask, bandana, or neck gaiter. The only reason those options were recommended, this time a year ago, is because N95 masks were impossible to find. Additionally, it was believed that something was better than nothing. However, those masks are completely worthless, and they stop spit and that's about it. Every breath you take in a non-fitted, non-sealing mask, on an unshaven face, you're breathing unfiltered air. Likewise, every breath you expel goes right around your mask, along with whatever germs you may have.  

If someone wants to actually follow the science, then shave your face and buy some N95 masks. Otherwise, you're just self-aggrandizing. The fashion show masks everybody wears these days provide the same safety benefit as cutting the seat belts out of your car and replacing them with kite string.

FYI, when asked to wear a mask, I do so but think it is silly.  I've had my Pfizer double tap and pose no threat to anyone, save my driving a 6,000+ lb. car to and from work everyday....but hey, they give away driver's licenses like lollipops at the pediatrician's office.

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6 minutes ago, BEVOSREVENGE said:

Here's the issue with the pro-mask argument.  When Covid began, the science behind mask wearing was based on the mask being: 

(a) an N95 to N99

(b) properly fitted

(c) worn on a clean shaven face


What percentage of mask wearers would you say check all of those boxes? Maybe 1%, but most wear a homemade mask, spandex & lycra mask, surgical mask, bandana, or neck gaiter. The only reason those options were recommended, this time a year ago, is because N95 masks were impossible to find. Additionally, it was believed that something was better than nothing. However, those masks are completely worthless, and they stop spit and that's about it. Every breath you take in a non-fitted, non-sealing mask, on an unshaven face, you're breathing unfiltered air. Likewise, every breath you expel goes right around your mask, along with whatever germs you may have.  

If someone wants to actually follow the science, then shave your face and buy some N95 masks. Otherwise, you're just self-aggrandizing. The fashion show masks everybody wears these days provide the same safety benefit as cutting the seat belts out of your car and replacing them with kite string.

FYI, when asked to wear a mask, I do so but think it is silly.  I've had my Pfizer double tap and pose no threat to anyone, save my driving a 6,000+ lb. car to and from work everyday....but hey, they give away driver's licenses like lollipops at the pediatrician's office.

You are taking an awful lot of liberties here.  Masks are not perfect I will agree there, if you look at the science of all the different types of masks, even n95 aren’t perfect.  But even neck gators provide more protection than nothing and there are studies that show the type of face coverings and their effectiveness.  As someone one above said, it doesn’t have to be perfect to be used.  Seatbelts aren’t perfect yet they are used.  It’s just math, do your part, and if everyone did theirs the spread slows.  Doesn’t make sense that something being only 90% effective means the alternative is do nothing.  That lacks logic.  

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44 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

Just curious, if there was only a .005% chance that today when I walked outside, not wearing a mask could cause someone their life, why would I not wear one?  Is it such a disposition?  

 

In short, yes.  Walking outside by itself probably meets that risk threshold without Covid.

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1 hour ago, BEVOSREVENGE said:

Really happy to be of service.

Can we say with any degree of certainty that vaccinated people are unlikely to spread COVID to unvaccinated individuals?

"The emerging data confirms what many of us thought would be the case—that not only do the vaccines stop symptomatic COVID, but they also make it highly unlikely that someone can even be infected at all.  I think the preponderance of the evidence supports the fact that vaccinated individuals are not able to spread the virus."

"Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don't get sick, and that it's not just in the clinical trials but it's also in real-world data," CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky told Rachel Maddow on Monday, March 29. Walensky was describing the results of a new CDC study of vaccinated Americans, which found that they not only had very high resistance to COVID-19, but also to asymptomatic infections of the SARS-CoV-2 virus – and, by extension, are very unlikely to spread it to other people.

Here is something to lighten the mood around here on this subject.

https://twitter.com/BarrettWilson6/status/1386914904997867522?s=20

Dr Rochelle Walensky has to rollback that statement.

Also your previous data tables showed some infection still occurred, even if its low.

It's not zero.

 

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47 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

And for those that can’t get vaccines (immunodeficient, children)?  Where do we put them?  

Where did we put them before Covid?  It's not like it's the only virus/bacteria with airborne transmission.   

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2 minutes ago, FrancisK7 said:

Dr Rochelle Walensky has to rollback that statement.

Also your previous data tables showed some infection still occurred, even if its low.

It's not zero.

 

Getting into the rollback would be political, so we should just leave that alone.

Nothing in life is zero risk, nothing.

Laugh a little and don't be so rigid with your 0% tolerance level.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Where did we put them before Covid?  It's not like it's the only virus/bacteria with airborne transmission.   

I don’t understand this question.  Heart Disease, Cancer and the other top killers are all non-communicable.  They haven’t gone anywhere but at least they were/are not transmitted.  COVID-19 is now the 3rd leading cause of death is very communicable. How did we protect people before COVID from Covid?  Sorry I’m lost.  
 

image.png.dbb28d0161c85ee1fb495338972d9913.png

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10 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

I don’t understand this question.  Heart Disease, Cancer and the other top killers are all non-communicable.  They haven’t gone anywhere but at least they were/are not transmitted.  COVID-19 is now the 3rd leading cause of death is very communicable. How did we protect people before COVID from Covid?  Sorry I’m lost.  

Point of fact: For the US at least, COVID-19 deaths surpassed heart disease and cancer to be the leading cause of death at several points through the pandemic. 

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16 minutes ago, mprach024 said:

You are taking an awful lot of liberties here.  Masks are not perfect I will agree there, if you look at the science of all the different types of masks, even n95 aren’t perfect.  But even neck gators provide more protection than nothing and there are studies that show the type of face coverings and their effectiveness.  As someone one above said, it doesn’t have to be perfect to be used.  Seatbelts aren’t perfect yet they are used.  It’s just math, do your part, and if everyone did theirs the spread slows.  Doesn’t make sense that something being only 90% effective means the alternative is do nothing.  That lacks logic.  

Done my part, my Pfizer double tap is scientifically proven to be vastly more effective than a silly mask.  Just waiting on the rest of the population to take one for the team too.

I will give you this, most people are gross.  Think about how many people, prior to Covid, did not wash their hands before eating or after using the restroom. 🤮 A mask and washing their hands are both good first steps for them.  Probably should add not picking buggers out of their noses to that list as well.

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1 minute ago, BEVOSREVENGE said:

I will give you this, most people are gross.

Lol so true.  

Glad you got your vax, I got the Pfizer as well. 

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