Cigar Surgeon Posted June 2, 2021 Share Posted June 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Bijan said: This is an interesting issue with broader issues of quality control. CCs are worse at the narrow aspect of QC in manufacturing processes. That is ensuring that they deliver acceptable quality cigars and weed out the rejects in any given batch. But from what you are saying NCs are worse at ensuring they deliver consistent quality over time, year over year. Both place a burden on the consumer. In the CC world to assume losses on dud cigars and dud boxes and in the NC world to track trends over time and quality of new and old releases. This probably points to different needs in terms of reviews. With CCs personally I want to see many reviews of many different boxes and cigars over several years to get an idea of how good a good example of the cigar is and what is the variability. An old review is probably as relevant as a recent review, which given what you say is not at all true of NCs. Again this probably doesn't apply to the ELs and REs that halfwheel reviews, so I'm probably going off topic again. But I'm mainly into regular production. I didn't expand out on my thought process very well, let me try again. With CCs you have a particular size and brand of cigar. Let's take the Cohiba Robusto for example. Cohiba Robusto should be the same in 2013 as it is in 2021. With NCs you will have a particular brand of cigar, and particular sizes. And those will remain consistent, presumably, year over year. But with NCs there is a constant drive to release new product. So when we talk about NC Cohiba, we're talking about a brand new product that was released this year, and a brand new product that was released last year, that live along side a brand new product that was created say back in 2013. The challenge for some brands is that if you smoke Release A from 2013, it may not have anything at all in common with the flavor profile that has been created with Release B in 2020. I mean if you manage your brand properly you should have a consistent profile, or at least be in the same ballpark, but most of the time it isn't. I smoke NCs for review multiple times a week, 52 weeks out of a year and it's not possible for me to keep up with the amount of new product that's being released out into the market. 54 minutes ago, Enduin said: @Bijan I think you and Surgeon are talking about two different aspects of quality and that is pretty representative of the CC/NC debate. One thing is construction and one thing is flavor. CCs tend to fall short on construction, NCs tend to fall short on flavor. When Surgeon was talking earlier in the thread about NCs getting worse after 2018 I bet it was not about plugged cigars, but rather the flavor profile. Both things can be called "Quality" and they are two halves of the same thing: ideally we want both good construction and a good flavor profile. With NCs there are factors that are not present on the CC side of things. Something like a specific brand that after becoming successful, sells off to a conglomerate and the result being cigars that might still be well constructed but taste worse/bland/etc. Basically they become more like cookie-cutter commercial stuff instead of a unique brand. Camacho and Drew Estate come to mind. The change can also be about where the tobacco is sourced, because not being limited to just one country (like Cuba), NCs brands can source tobacco from wherever they want, which sometimes makes the cigars better, other times it makes them worse (but maybe cheaper to make). Then there is the whole re-imagining a certain brand, like some of the examples we discussed including the Cohiba M. Usually that works out for the best, but it's still a pretty big change. You are 100% dead on with all of your points. When I speak about 'quality' I'm talking about flavor performance, although there is definitely a noticeable impact of brand managers not being at the factory in the last 15 months and it has started to show with poor construction at times on the NC side of things. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meklown Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said: Ugh, a whole new calculation. Not sure I have time to do that. Much fewer CC reviews so it was easier to total them. haha, sorry. I thought you had the scores all downloaded or something. I'd posit to say that if <5% of NCs score 90+ points, it would go some way to show that there are no biases towards NCs. In fact, a distribution graph of NC vs CC scores may be a better representation of where HW stands. It is rather unfair to cherry pick a few pockets of the statistics that support your hypothesis when the population is available. On the other hand, it was mentioned that they do not (understand) the reason for the FOH-commonly-accepted 90 day rule. Whereas, they rest on average 30-60 days. Another possible factor is that CCs are generally shipped globally while NCs are bought locally. Shorter shipping times generally reduces the amount of time required for acclimatising. (going down another rabbit hole here, I know). Or it could simply be that new NC releases are better than new CC releases. I wouldn't know, I don't smoke any NCs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Puros Y Vino Posted June 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2021 Well. This is quite the thread. I've been scanning through it now and then. I skimmed through the "data" discussions as that really didn't interest me personally. First off, it was good to see the gents from HW pop in and discuss/defend the assertions made by the OP. HW is one of the few review sites I visit. Even though the range of cigars they review (NC's) will never make it into my humidor, let alone my hands, I do enjoy the content and TBH, the site design is very clean and appealing. They take some great photos too which is a bonus. Threads like these are nothing new. They come around now and then. The one thing that sticks out to me is this. Why would someone care so much about a negative CC review? Unless you've got a business/financial stake in it, what's the problem? Every cigar is a unique beast. Some are rolled as intended and some fall short. That 87 Point Siglo VI reference? 87 points on some of the Sig VI's Iv'e smoked would be generous. They've been 50/50 cigars for me. Meaning, they're either blow my mind or are just "good". I've been smoking since 2009. Started off with NC's and then made the permanent shift to 100% CC's a year later. I do enjoy reading reviews and sometimes shake my head at some but I NEVER rely on one review or reviewer. I try to get a consensus on what a bunch of them think of a particular cigar and then I'll seek the knowledge of the only cigar reviewer that matters: Me!! (Sorry Rob, Ken. :D) At the end of the day, your own palate and personal opinion should rule the day. And if a review site of major note doesn't love a cigar you do. Bonus!! Nothing slows down sales like a bad review. Great time to stock up! The past 3/4 years, maybe more. Being a Habanos fan, especially in Canada, has been about new releases making way for old ones to get discarded. More bands = better. A 2017 EL continues to be made (Talisman), Flipping and price gouging on unprecedented levels. Toss in a Pandemic which prevents you from going anywhere let alone Cuba to enjoy the wares and stock up on MSRP cigars. Everyone is an expert these days. Every new "blingy" cigar is posed with a Rolex, red velvet, some Veuve Cliquot, toss in a fancy pen and ST Dupont lighter for the social media crowd. #THECIGARLIFE, #COHIBAISDABEST #MYCIGARSAREBETTERTHANYOURS, etc, etc. I'm not saying to abandon all critical thought. I love talking cigars with people. Understanding what they're enjoying or not and why. What they're looking forward to, favourite pairings, etc. A negative review shouldn't really inhibit your enjoyment of the cigar in question. The criticisms of HW in this thread are very reminiscent of the ones thrown CA's way. Both entities at the end of the day rely on revenues through advertising, by NC cigar makers. I don't think they are deliberately out to make CC's look bad in comparison. Habanos can do that at times all on their own. Accept the dynamics at play with review sites are not going to change and enjoy your smokes even if someone else doesn't. At the end of the day, your opinion is the one that matters most. As for the Dunhill Cabinettas. There was an excellent expose on ICC (internationalcigarclub.com?) years ago where the old hands exposed a cache of them flooding the market with stories of hundred of cigars, but "missing boxes", etc. The replica bands were almost 100% exact minus a couple of details. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer Smokin' Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 Great post. I don't even know what Veuve Cliquot means. That's probably a good thing 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLC Posted June 3, 2021 Share Posted June 3, 2021 Well said Frank. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Surgeon Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said: Great post. I don't even know what Veuve Cliquot means. That's probably a good thing Pour some Veuve Clicquot with a Cuban cigar and it will rock your world. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bijan Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 4 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said: Great post. I don't even know what Veuve Cliquot means. That's probably a good thing Brand of Champagne. I think it's pretty popular in Canada. 6 hours ago, Puros Y Vino said: That 87 Point Siglo VI reference? 87 points on some of the Sig VI's Iv'e smoked would be generous. They've been 50/50 cigars for me. Meaning, they're either blow my mind or are just "good". Great post but just to comment on one point. In this case unless there are several reviews over time like CA, or the review describes this distribution, it's not that useful to see an 87 point Sig VI. I guess it's up to the reader to read between the lines, but if I didn't know anything about a Siglo VI, I'd like to know they're equally likely to be either 95pts, or 80 pts or whatever it is. I mean you can think of a review as how good is this one particular cigar that this one particular person smoked at this one particular time. That's how I do my reviews. But then one review by itself is not useful. I feel like CA fudges things. They'll never have a 85pt review of a 95pt cigar (I'd have to check what their worst CC Cohiba rating is). Maybe not honest, but if I quickly want to see how they think a Siglo IV stacks up against a Siglo VI that system works out better in practice. Best system for quick numerical scores for me is actually: http://www.cigars-review.org/ it's just random internet people reviewing cigars, and they stopped adding new cigars at some point, but I find the scores are kind of useful, and the number of reviews for some discontinued cigars is nice to browse through. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSXCIGAR Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 On 6/3/2021 at 5:37 AM, Cigar Surgeon said: While CCs stay consistent (or try to) year over year, NCs change constantly. Yikes...never been happier not to be playing in the NC sandbox. Just a thought, but couldn't one argue that those extreme fluctuations in NCs could be considered QC issues? I see something like what you describe as a gigantic negative. 3 hours ago, Bijan said: I'd have to check what their worst CC Cohiba rating is I had to look. The 01 Cohiba Piramides EL scored a monster 80 in the Oct 1, 2002 issue. Notes: Veiny and dark, this cigar has a firm draw. It has a soggy cardboard flavor smacking of mushrooms. Regular production: Cohiba Lanceros, 83 points, Cigar Insider, June 1 2000. Notes: This cigar has an irregular bunch. The draw is tight, and the smoke is sour, gassy and bitter. Unpleasant and disappointing. Although I'm not exactly sure what they mean by "irregular bunch"...been around a long time and never heard that one. I guess they were coming up with new terms to denigrate CCs in those days. And yes, it does say "gassy"...I'm really hoping they meant "grassy" because if not, that might be the most unpleasant flavor description of a cigar possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Surgeon Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said: Yikes...never been happier not to be playing in the NC sandbox. Just a thought, but couldn't one argue that those extreme fluctuations in NCs could be considered QC issues? I see something like what you describe as a gigantic negative. My original comment wasn't defined very well. In the Cuban world, you have a marca with various sizes and in general that marca will have a particular flavor profile that's pretty recognizable. In the NC world you have a cigar brand, that cigar brand has any number of sub brands / lines, each one of which has any number of vitolas, each one of which may have a better, worse, or similar taste profile to the other vitola depending on a myriad of factors. For some brands, take Espinosa for example, you could say: "Hey Surgeon I really don't like Espinosa, they're pepper bombs and that's not really my thing". That works in the CC world, but while the sentiment is true about Espinosa in the broadest sense, it can't apply across the board because you have lines like La Crema, Laranja, Themis (Cubariqueno Cigars but comes out of Espinosa, even more layers of complication...), Las 6 Provincias, and Especial that all fly in the face of 'pepper bomb'. Now if you like the Espinosa La Crema Robusto, and you smoke one last year, this year, next year, like CCs the blend profile will probably remain quite consistent. On average, most NC companies come out with a new line every year, and many NC companies will come out with 'line extensions', which is a new size or a tweaked blend on an existing line. I could write another two to three pages on this but suffice it to say; the approach to a line of cigars from a 'marca' is radically different from an CC to a NC perspective. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puros Y Vino Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 22 hours ago, Bijan said: http://www.cigars-review.org/ it's just random internet people reviewing cigars, and they stopped adding new cigars at some point, but I find the scores are kind of useful, and the number of reviews for some discontinued cigars is nice to browse through. I found this site years ago. I really like the format of it. Sadly, it is underused/visited. 10 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said: I could write another two to three pages on this but suffice it to say; the approach to a line of cigars from a 'marca' is radically different from an CC to a NC perspective. There you have it folks. Our resident @Cigar Surgeon sacrificing his life and palate to research the NC world by collecting first hand data and correlating it for those who smoke CC's exclusively. May your lungs be plasticized and preserved for generations to come. Good talking to you yesterday BTW. 🥂 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Surgeon Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Puros Y Vino said: There you have it folks. Our resident @Cigar Surgeon sacrificing his life and palate to research the NC world by collecting first hand data and correlating it for those who smoke CC's exclusively. May your lungs be plasticized and preserved for generations to come. Good talking to you yesterday BTW. 🥂 You too mang. We all need to get together in Cuba sooner rather than later it's been way too long. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeypots Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 So this is one great thread and is a good example of why I read this forum. Lots of great information about cigars. This thread affirms what I've seen of the results of blind tastings and all reviews here and elsewhere, people in different places smoking the same cigars can come away with wildly differing opinions of the cigar. This is an amended post I shared at the beginning of the thread. Quote I think they are fair but they review lots of special production Habanos. Gotta say, I concur with a lot of those reviews being a guy who gave up pursuing REs and Els years ago. I'll stand by it and say that 20 years + into a Havana cigar infatuation, you gotta find out what you like. Reading reviews and buying what's recommended is ok but I bought a lot of cigars I didn't care for. Once I had the means to buy, store, and acclimate my cigars, I had the chance to smoke, by myself, my cigars, and experience wha I like. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BrooksW Posted June 22, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 22, 2021 Hey, look, we do say nice things every once in a while! https://halfwheel.com/hoyo-de-monterrey-primaveras/395375/ FWIW, this was really, really good. Anyone else had one recently? 2 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chibearsv Posted June 22, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, BrooksW said: Hey, look, we do say nice things every once in a while! https://halfwheel.com/hoyo-de-monterrey-primaveras/395375/ FWIW, this was really, really good. Anyone else had one recently? Ok, I hate it when someone does this. I've got 2 boxes that I bought (since I'm year of the Ox) and I was just fine with forgetting them at the bottom of the pile of tupperdors for a few years. Then you go ahead and say they're really, really good. You're killing me here! 😁 I might just bust one out tonight if I get motivated enough to get through all the packaging. The review certainly entices me. Thanks 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BrooksW Posted June 23, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Lrabold89 said: what i really would like to know is .......how/why do you hold a cigar like this ? lol 😅 TBH, I have be diagnosed with Onychotillomania (which I have endured for as long as I can remember, just did not know it was an actual thing) and so have always held cigars like this to cover my nails in photographs going back to the SmokingStogie days, because trust me, you do NOT want to see them lol. 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooksW Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Lrabold89 said: very interesting and thanks for sharing!....ill take your word for it 😅 ...in any case, nice review ! Yeah, just don't Google images of it while eating 🤢 Thanks for the kind words! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bijan Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 On 6/2/2021 at 2:36 PM, Çnote said: Edit: to be clear, General Cohiba are not sold in Canada at all, so someone is going to really have to reach to get them and then post to FB or whatever. Missed this the first time around, but CC Punch are also not available in Canada, nor obviously are Italian regionals put so so many Punch Mantua Italian ER pics among the CC pics in Canada groups. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Nation Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 18 minutes ago, Lrabold89 said: lmao ...this is absolutely absurd ....you read this and you just gotta laugh.........idc if its halfwheel, fullwheel, or whatever blog or person out there, this is pure garbage lol YET, it's someone elses experience/opinions/assessment....so considering eveything is subjective, i guess you gotta respect it lol...holy mackerel that is some funny stuff tho .........reminds me of a @99call 😅 One of many examples showing why HW’s assessments on Cuban cigars are throwaways. When it comes to Cuban tobacco, HW's facility for analysis is just not there. Not my cup of tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chibearsv Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 @BrooksW, sorry I didn't crack open my Primaveras last night as I said I might. I think they just deserve to sit in their beautiful boxes for a couple years before I rudely smoke my way through all of them. I probably won't make it too much longer though since the thought is in my head. Instead though, I did open a new box of Escogidos yesterday thinking it might be a good compromise and wow did that prove to be a great idea. What a shockingly good cigar. The first few puffs tasted like a Rollo, milk chocolate and caramel pow! in the kisser. Then a flavor ride with some transitions as it went along beautifully to the end. These aren't going to last long, that's for sure. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bijan Posted June 23, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 23, 2021 20 minutes ago, Lrabold89 said: Brosama Just when I thought you couldn't top Abroham Lincoln 😂 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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