Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?


Vaccination in the work place.   

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Whatever happens we have to get back to working full fledged soon and get kids back in school. I have not lost any family or friends to covid yet but I've lost 4 friends to suicide since this thing started. One shot himself within 30 minutes of my brother dropping him off from hunting and after my brother dropped his brother off he came back out to the first ones house and found his blood trail where he shot himself in the head with a deer rifle and lived long enough to crawl back to the house. His twin brother committed suicide 6 months later. Both left a wife and traumatized young son behind them. I lost two more single friends, one male and one female as well. All very tragic and all caused by the added stress in their lives over the last 18months. 

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As a front line healthcare worker I'm absolutely sick and tired of people coming in with covid now.  We did it last year, and our hospital lost half its staff. Now we're understaffed like every h

No way should they have that right. People should not be forced to accept a medical procedure in order to work, especially not an experimental and potentially very dangerous one. And it is very much e

Exactly, it’s like the current hysteria with kids supposedly getting it in any serious numbers. Absolutely no scientific or statistical evidence behind it, pure fear propaganda. If you are vaccin

6 minutes ago, Fosgate said:

Whatever happens we have to get back to working full fledged soon and get kids back in school. I have not lost any family or friends to covid yet but I've lost 4 friends to suicide since this thing started. One shot himself within 30 minutes of my brother dropping him off from hunting and after my brother dropped his brother off he came back out to the first ones house and found his blood trail where he shot himself in the head with a deer rifle and lived long enough to crawl back to the house. His twin brother committed suicide 6 months later. Both left a wife and traumatized young son behind them. I lost two more single friends, one male and one female as well. All very tragic and all caused by the added stress in their lives over the last 18months. 

Sorry for your loss.  The silence from the media regarding the suicide rates and other domestic devastation caused by these ridiculous measures over the last year and a half has been deafening.  Also  I can't imagine the mental health toll this is taking on the children now,  and will in the years to come.   I work in the school system and what I see is a total demoralization of our youth and it is absolutely sickening.  God help us.

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31 minutes ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

One of the things I find most strange in my location is the number of doctors and nurses that refuse to get it and tell their friends it is unnecessary. I would bet I know a good 30 or 40 nurses and at least 10 physicians who have not gotten it and tell others they don’t need to get it. These are ER doctors and pediatricians and internal medicine specialists.

Obviously I did not listen to them as I got vaccinated but I do find it odd.

 

Nurses, yes.

Doctors, very rare.

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1 hour ago, Trapper99 said:

This is my main problem with the mandates. The gov leaning on business to enforce what they can't do. Yesterday Fauci said, "screw you freedom, yes I think businesses should mandate vaccines". He is a gov official, and in the same interview he said "yes, I don't believe we will see a national mandate" (because they can't). To me that is a problem and a terrible precedent having businesses act as agents of the gov to enforce something the gov can't do, but under the cover "it's private business". 

I wouldn't say my position is anti-vax. Yes, at this time I have chosen that the vax is not for, and my wife chose the same, but that is subject to change as the situation changes. Who knows, maybe covid mutates to become as deadly in the young as the old. Maybe after a few years, more long term data is out on everything. But coercion, mandates, bribes, and "screw your freedom" is not the way. If an elderly person asked me if i should get the vax or not, I'd say the stats say you have a pretty good risk of dying from covid. I wouldn't say I'm anti-vax, but I am anti-mandate. I know many people who have had the vax, that are also anti-mandate.

In disagreements like this, I try and figure out what is the fundamental difference that causes there to be a different point of view. Like in Inception where they try to strip down the idea to it's simplist form, what is that simplist form here? Both sides can spout everything from talking points, experiences, stats, and even agreed upon facts, but there is a fundamental difference that is hard to bridge. Best I can come up with on this topic is a difference on some level of "self government" v "community duty". I'm sure others see it a different way as I am looking at it from one POV. I'd welcome any other views on what one thinks the fundamental difference is... 

I agree with much of what you say here. Sadly, this is a time where governance is required, and instead, these governmental prima donnas pass on tough decision making so they don’t risk losing an election and the only job they could keep.  I’m not usually in favor of the government mandating anything but this is either a legitimate emergency that needs to be addressed and dealt with in strictest terms or it’s not. I’d start by listening to healthcare workers and as we’ve heard here, they’re limit up on tolerating the management of this disease by measuring maximum healthcare labor and facility capacities.  This thing will never go away unless mandates happen. Can we live with that?  

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1 hour ago, Fosgate said:

Whatever happens we have to get back to working full fledged soon and get kids back in school. I have not lost any family or friends to covid yet but I've lost 4 friends to suicide since this thing started. One shot himself within 30 minutes of my brother dropping him off from hunting and after my brother dropped his brother off he came back out to the first ones house and found his blood trail where he shot himself in the head with a deer rifle and lived long enough to crawl back to the house. His twin brother committed suicide 6 months later. Both left a wife and traumatized young son behind them. I lost two more single friends, one male and one female as well. All very tragic and all caused by the added stress in their lives over the last 18months. 

I can't even imagine how difficult that must be Fos.

I have one that 'opted out' in Nov, one died from the 'vid over Christmas (no one was able to visit including his long-term gf and his daughter) and a buddy dealing with brain cancer that contracted it and is still ticking. The only places he was were at home and the cancer center itself.

A return to normal can't come soon enough  - we're just not programmed to be isolated and it's certainly taking it's toll.

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Employers should have the right to ask. Employees should have the right to refuse. Employers can then try to replace those employees.

Google, Facebook, Citigroup, Tyson, UAL among those mandating vaccines. Once there is full FDA approval, it’ll become more common.

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1 hour ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

It looks like whatever your feelings are on the matter, businesses are moving forward with the requirement and 'vaccine passports' have arrived.

 

We have that in Germany now for a couple of months and it gets tougher for the unvaccinated : testing that is free of charge now will have to be paid from Oct. 10-th onwards, so they will pretty much be squeezed if they want to take part in public life without a vaccine.

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2 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

It looks like whatever your feelings are on the matter, businesses are moving forward with the requirement and 'vaccine passports' have arrived.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/13/us/new-orleans-vaccination-proof/index.html

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-vaccine-passport-1.6136031

New Orleans is vaccine or proof of a negative test - that is not the arrival of vaccine passports. It is literally in the first sentence of the article. Are you even trying to convey the truth at this point?

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17 hours ago, Hammer Smokin' said:

 

Nurses, yes.

Doctors, very rare.

Doctors wont even go into the rooms. Dont know how many times my wife she has given report to a doctor about a patient, at the patents door. When she opens to door to go in...both of them to go in...the doctor stands there staring at her only to say "im not going in there." 

Repulsive

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42 minutes ago, porkchop said:

New Orleans is vaccine or proof of a negative test - that is not the arrival of vaccine passports. It is literally in the first sentence of the article. Are you even trying to convey the truth at this point?

That's pretty close if you have to have a negative test anytime you want to go to the gym or eat out, etc. Unless the venue tests you at the door that's a lot of trouble to go to.

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We have that in Germany now for a couple of months and it gets tougher for the unvaccinated : testing that is free of charge now will have to be paid from Oct. 10-th onwards, so they will pretty much be squeezed if they want to take part in public life without a vaccine.
You could say it's a fair point why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any vaccination. Don't know what the rules are now in Germany, but I'm also curious how this will be stretched to for example even shops, government buildings or going to work and how other countries are going to react on it. It is considered silly to make a analogy to a certain dark time in German history (not that the French don't have that dark time, same rules implied) and im not going to make it, but I'm still looking at this with the greatest of curiosity and hesitation.

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10 minutes ago, DanWil84 said:

You could say it's a fair point why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any vaccination. Don't know what the rules are now in Germany, but I'm also curious how this will be stretched to for example even shops, government buildings or going to work and how other countries are going to react on it. It is considered silly to make a analogy to a certain dark time in German history (not that the French don't have that dark time, same rules implied) and im not going to make it, but I'm still looking at this with the greatest of curiosity and hesitation.

 

Yes, I cannot see why I should pay taxes to pay for testing of people that could have received a free Covid vaccine.

And while Germany is still a "Mother Theresa" country accomodating all and hurting noone, attitudes are changing and people have a choice next Sept. in general elections.

It will be stretched for sure to add Shops, Hospitals, elderly care homes etc., pretty soon it will be nationwide I guess and companies will be asking for it.

Yes, silly indeed and since I consider myself a Spaniard with a German passport I won't comment to that analogy - Groetjes 🙂

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49 minutes ago, DanWil84 said:

You could say it's a fair point why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any vaccination.

It starts of as that and turns into "why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any ______."

 

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It starts of as that and turns into "why taxpayers should pay for people that don't want any ______."
 
Well that's quite ironic to say on a tobacco forum and the risks of smoking, but I get your point. This remark was only regarding this topic of which you could say it's a valid argument if there is a choice and a consequence of picking one. It would be quite a stretch to ask for a vaccination or negative test for just going shopping, but if I really didn't want the vaccine I would go test to go to a concert or going out dining. Yes that would cost me around 20 to 40 euros a test, but thats the consequence. There is a argument to make for why you would even consider that with a virus with a IFR of blablabla, but that's not the point, it will get shoved in your throat anyway. That's what we have live with, with people in power that do not care for your interest.

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Vaccine passport/proof of vaccine now required for internal flights into the state of West Australia. 

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2 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Vaccine passport/proof of vaccine now required for internal flights into the state of West Australia. 

The same was just announced in Canada for all commercial air travelers, passengers on inter-provincial trains and passengers on large, marine vessels with overnight accommodations such as cruise ships. They also said a requirement for all Federal government employees to be vaccinated is coming soon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131

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3 minutes ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

The same was just announced in Canada for all commercial air travelers, passengers on inter-provincial trains and passengers on large, marine vessels with overnight accommodations such as cruise ships. They also said a requirement for all Federal government employees to be vaccinated is coming soon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-government-mandatory-vaccinations-1.6140131

So far. Ontario civil servants do not need vax to go to their workplace, nor can they be asked about their status.  🙄 Their privacy trumps everyone else's safety. 

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7 minutes ago, Meesterjojo said:

Reading backyards is just like reading through heart of darkness. It'd a hot mess.

At this point indo not understand why folks are confusing personal rights and freedom's with not wanting to harm your neighbors. 

You do not have the right to harm other people. That's is why you need to get vaccinated,  mask up, or leave society.

No one has the right to harm others. End of debate.

This is their logic:

If vaccines work 100% then I don't need to Vax because the vaccinated are protected.

If vaccines don't work 100% then I don't need to Vax because no protection is the same as 90% protection plus "long term side effects". I use quotes because it seems rare for a 2x treatment to have long term side effects but no short term side effects. The AstraZeneca vaccine had blood clots in the short term. Most other medicines with long term side effects have those effects after repeated doses of the medication not 2 doses.

And I guess there's a feeling that the doing no harm to others rule only covers positive actions, negative actions are different because it forces you to do something. Personally being forbidden from doing something or forced to do something is a matter of perspective in many cases. In this case you are forbidden from entering a gym unless you are vaccinated is that the same as being forced to be vaccinated? Just the phrasing there is different.

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5 hours ago, Bijan said:

That's pretty close if you have to have a negative test anytime you want to go to the gym or eat out, etc. Unless the venue tests you at the door that's a lot of trouble to go to.

A bullet that is pretty close to hitting you in the head is a lot different than a bullet that hits you in the head. If the make believe has to continue for politicians to stay in power and corporate leaders to get rich(er), so be it. Plebs of either persuasion (mandate and no mandate) can play along, each in their own way. Personally, I am ok playing the game. It is childish, but whatever - the small pleasures will still be there. 

 

5 hours ago, Cigar Surgeon said:

Are you even looking to have a civil conversation in this thread or just fight with everyone you can?

At what, $79 a pop for each visit, requiring a negative COVID test for entry into bars, restaurants, breweries, gyms, fitness centers, sports complexes and stadiums, is a de facto vaccine passport.

Huh? Not sure if you are trolling - I had one other post in a ten page thread. You posted something that was wrong and got corrected. Happens to the best of us. 

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