Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?

[rcarlson]

5 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

countries all around the world have such regulations. given that this has been around for so long, perhaps you could detail which countries have tipped into totalitarianism thanks to those policies? or do you really think that providing similar policies for covid is actually the straw that break's the camel. 

Spanish Flu pandemic; Nazi Germany

[Bijan]

39 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Spanish Flu pandemic; Nazi Germany

Losing WWI may have had something to do with it...

Also the article that suggests that link explains it by the increased fear of foreigners caused by outbreaks, not government regulations:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/1918-flu-pandemic-boosted-support-for-the-nazis-fed-study-claims.html

[dobbs]

this thread is proof that getting a "b" in logic should be mandatory to graduate high school. requiring vaccinations as  a condition of employment, to travel, to attend school, etc. is not a mandate that anyone be vaccinated. it is not even "effectively a mandate".

arguing why anyone should or shouldn't personally get the vaccine is not part of the logic involved in the question as to whether or not employers can make it a condition of employment. the question is whether or not you feel an employer has the right/freedom to decide how they want to run their business. nothing more.

all of the freedom lovers in the house should stand and fight for the employer's rights, whether or not you agree with their choice. isn't that what a non-totalitarian, free country is all about?

-dobbs

[Ciscojohansson]

8 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

a century ago, the US supreme court supported mandatory vaccinations. zucht v king. every single state in the US has requirements for mandatory vaccinations for children (they differ from state to state and there are some states with certain exemptions). there are other mandatory vaccinations there. think military for an example. in the States, it first happened back in the 1850s to fight smallpox. 

in australia, we have rules which mean no welfare for those who won't vaccinate their children. this was pre covid and has huge support. 

countries all around the world have such regulations. given that this has been around for so long, perhaps you could detail which countries have tipped into totalitarianism thanks to those policies? or do you really think that providing similar policies for covid is actually the straw that break's the camel. 

No, I am not saying this is the straw and I am not saying that the vaccine is a bad thing, I will take it when given the chance. But I understand the scepticism given that the there is no way to know the long term consequences of the vaccine. I know nothing about the history of US law or any other countries law so I cannot comment on that. I am saying that it is wrong of employers to demand that a person should put anything into their bodies.

In my mind an employer can only demand that an employee does his job, at the same time they should be able to hire/fire anyone. But let’s say that employers can demand proof vaccination and wish to check an employee. Here comes the digital covid passport which I believe will lead to a digital social credit system like the one China has. I think the social credit system will come at our own request and that the growing fear in our societies will be the reason for it. Be that fear of terrorism, crime, disease, climate or something else. In the end it is all a fear of death that we as a civilization (the West) or a culture cannot handle anymore and will do anything to not face up to.

[Fuzz]

As long as an employer is responsible for the health and safety of their employees, customers and workplace, they should be allowed to dictate the rules under which that employment is provided (as long as it doesn't contravene Fed/State safety standards). If the employer lists that vaccination is a requirement of the job, then the employee has to choose whether they want the job or not. Mitigating circumstances of course should apply to those who, for medical reasons, are unable to take the vaccine.

 

[rcarlson]

5 hours ago, Bijan said:

Losing WWI may have had something to do with it...

Also the article that suggests that link explains it by the increased fear of foreigners caused by outbreaks, not government regulations:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/1918-flu-pandemic-boosted-support-for-the-nazis-fed-study-claims.html

 "The article?" 

It's a broader corollary.  It's the consequences of social distrust, vilification, and altered social interactions easily exploited for political purpose -- provided you accept the premise of the studies.  I think that is the real heart of the debate if you step back, and it shouldn't be so casually dismissed IMO.      

   

[CaptainQuintero]

On 8/11/2021 at 3:16 AM, Zebra said:

Sorry one last thing. A recent official Public Health England (PHE) report has shown CT values were similar between vaccinated and unvaccinated cases. This means that once infected there "is limited difference in viral load" between vaccinated and unvaccinated persons.

This backs up what I’ve said earlier so thought I’d share it. 😎

  I think it's only fair to point out that you've missed the rest of the data out here. 

  This data is about the testing regime not effectiveness of the vaccine.

  In a vaccinated person, when the virus enters the body, antibodies surround the virus and attach to the spike proteins of the virus, rendering it safe/inert and in time the body breaks these down. The tests are made to detect DNA particles of the virus. They do this regardless of whether the virus is active, or nullified in the case of an vaccinated individual.

  The data partly shown here shows the limitations of the testing programs, not the effectiveness of the vaccines.

  With vaccinated individuals the viral load is significantly lower, due to the antibodies doing this 'attack' and preventing viral multiplication. The viral load is also at a high level for a much shorter time than those unvaccinated. This, along with the reduced ability of the vital particles to be able to attach to the respiratory tract in vaccinated individuals (Due to those spike proteins being covered up, even partially) means there's a significant reduction of transmission from those vaccinated.

  It was up to 70% prior to Delta, with Delta it swings between 40-70%

  Without vaccination the antibody response is like being forced to run a 400m sprint at the Olympics. Some people with serious health conditions or those who are very frail will not survive that race. If you've been vaccinated you get to start the race 10m from the finishing line

[CaptainQuintero]

22 hours ago, Trapper99 said:

  Someone who is 75 years old who is against the vaccine, I'll say "yea, you might want to reconsider" as covid is much bigger risk for them. I'm 33, my wife is 26, and we are getting ready to try and grow our family and are both healthy. For us, the right choice is not to take the vaccine as covid is statistically zero risk for us. Covid is also statistically zero risk for those who took the vaccine. That is all good!! 

 

22 hours ago, djrey said:

Spot on brother. I’m 30 and plan on a starting a family in the next 2 years. My fiancé and I have nearly zero risk of Covid complications and know well over 30 friends who barely knew they had it. 

   Picking up on the statistically zero stuff that might be of interest:

  This is more personal experience so just trying to show the other side here. I caught it last March at 33 years old, zero prior physical health concerns, I was running field hockey practice two days before I caught it. 17 months later I'm still unable to work, can't walk more than a mile in the flat with a stick, on bad days I have to take a break half way between brushing my teeth. Wife who is 27 and an ED nurse had a sniffy nose for a day. It's a crap shoot

  Incidentally the Covid she sees at work now is roughly divided up into 30% very old/frail people who are fully vaccinated but with extremely serious prior health conditions. The rest are 30-50 year olds not vaccinated, far more to the younger side of that due to there being more of them unvaccinated. She's been ventilating 30 year olds for the past month then getting email updates the next day or so saying they didn't make it and now have orphaned or single parent kids.

  This isn't a scaremongering exercise and I don't want to try and push you one way or another, but a snapshot of the reality of being unvaccinated regardless of age, those statistics look ok on paper but the reality of a single or even half digit percentages of a young population being effected is a lot larger in person.

  Delta is not messing around. I would exercise caution if you base your decision around it not effecting those of us who are relatively young 👍

[Corylax18]

51 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

It was up to 70% prior to Delta, with Delta it swings between 40-70%

These numbers are OK. But they aren't the 95%+ we were told 6 months ago. I agree, the testing regime cant keep up with the spread. 40-70% cut in transmission rates isn't going to cut it though, not with our current vaccination pace around the globe. The virus is clearly outpacing the people charged with containing it, regardless of where we move the efficacy goal posts to next. 

11 hours ago, Bijan said:

Initially they were hoping this would happen when 60-70% got vaccinated,

We're there in the US right now, at least with adults. We're going the wrong way with case loads and hospitalizations. I pulled a very specific line from the Smallpox link you quoted:

 effective in preventing smallpox infection in 95% of those vaccinated

None of the Covid vaccines are actually this effective at preventing spread, and the percentages are getting worse the more we learn/test. If the current vaccines were actually anywhere near 95% effective At Preventing Infection we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

When you combine the rapidly declining efficacy of the current vaccines with the large group of people who refuse to get vaccinated, or cant, you get the current spikes we're seeing all over the globe. China, Cuba, the U.S.

Its great that fewer people are being hospitalized and dying, but that isn't going to stop this virus from continuing to mutate and the people "running the show" know that. 

I got my second jab of Moderna in late April, I dont regret it and I still think everyone should get vaccinated. Hell, I'm typing this up from a hotel room less than a mile away from Pfizer's massive packaging and distribution plant right now. Seeing the place BUZZING put a smile on my face. Supposedly every Pfizer dose shipped anywhere in north America came through this plant. 

That being said, we need to call a spade a spade. These "vaccines" aren't vaccines, just as @LordAnubis said, they are temporary therapeutics that help you manage the disease. The modern drug companies wet dream, a constant and steady income flow for years to come. Government protections preventing generic versions, guaranteed payments from the taxpayer, hell we're even paying to market it to ourselves. If some one had written this as science fiction we wouldn't believe it.  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pfizer+-+Kalamazoo/@42.2116813,-85.5616263,1481m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88179e8a4a6f93b3:0x2325084a527b0d2c!8m2!3d42.2132465!4d-85.5561375

[dominattorney]

I have a step son who believes the new generation of anti Vax hysteria. He alternatively believes the vaccines are a form of government control/sterilization, and that they were rushed to market. There are some pretty disturbing tik tok videos that he likes to watch, and he won't hear anyone when they try to point out "hey, isn't it possible that tik tok videos shot by 20 year Olds you don't know are fake news?"  Until these types of issues get met head on its going to be a problem for many. I blame the stupid celebs for perpetrating the general anti vax point of view starting from about a decade ago. 

I also must say that I was skeptical of the moderna vax when it came out based on how it was developed. I felt far more comfortable with the J and J jab, but then there were credible stories of certain people suffering adverse reactions from it. The news, and people with an agenda, can spin anything. I finally got the Pfizer one and had no general issues. 

[Fuzz]

5 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

I have a step son who believes the new generation of anti Vax hysteria. He alternatively believes the vaccines are a form of government control/sterilization, and that they were rushed to market. There are some pretty disturbing tik tok videos that he likes to watch, and he won't hear anyone when they try to point out "hey, isn't it possible that tik tok videos shot by 20 year Olds you don't know are fake news?"  Until these types of issues get met head on its going to be a problem for many. I blame the stupid celebs for perpetrating the general anti vax point of view starting from about a decade ago. 

I also must say that I was skeptical of the moderna vax when it came out based on how it was developed. I felt far more comfortable with the J and J jab, but then there were credible stories of certain people suffering adverse reactions from it. The news, and people with an agenda, can spin anything. I finally got the Pfizer one and had no general issues. 

Just remind him that Tik Tok is a Chinese app. That should get his conspiracy theory paranoia going in full gear.

[BrightonCorgi]

I would go to the American military's mantra "Don't Ask,  Don't Tell".  As an employer I would not ask anything HIPAA related.  None of my business.  I would encourage all employees to consult their primary care physician and do what is in their best interest.

As more and more variants emerge, Covid will be dealt with by therapeutic's.  Not vaccines.  We have never eradicated a virus in human history beyond small pox, but that is a unique one only to humans.  Most are okay with getting a bit sick, but no one wants to die or be in the hospital.  That is where theraputics come in.

[Corylax18]

8 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

pretty disturbing tik tok videos

Social Media is like brain cancer. It just eats away at otherwise healthy minds. Talk about a Pandemic. 

[djrey]

28 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

 

   Picking up on the statistically zero stuff that might be of interest:

  This is more personal experience so just trying to show the other side here. I caught it last March at 33 years old, zero prior physical health concerns, I was running field hockey practice two days before I caught it. 17 months later I'm still unable to work, can't walk more than a mile in the flat with a stick, on bad days I have to take a break half way between brushing my teeth. Wife who is 27 and an ED nurse had a sniffy nose for a day. It's a crap shoot

  Incidentally the Covid she sees at work now is roughly divided up into 30% very old/frail people who are fully vaccinated but with extremely serious prior health conditions. The rest are 30-50 year olds not vaccinated, far more to the younger side of that due to there being more of them unvaccinated. She's been ventilating 30 year olds for the past month then getting email updates the next day or so saying they didn't make it and now have orphaned or single parent kids.

  This isn't a scaremongering exercise and I don't want to try and push you one way or another, but a snapshot of the reality of being unvaccinated regardless of age, those statistics look ok on paper but the reality of a single or even half digit percentages of a young population being effected is a lot larger in person.

  Delta is not messing around. I would exercise caution if you base your decision around it not effecting those of us who are relatively young 👍

Thank you for sharing your experience and sorry you are going through that. I certainly do realize that there are extreme cases and some of which effect the young and healthy as well. 
 

My only comment back would be we see  this with other diseases too. For example, I have a family friend who competed in natural body building. Guy was probably a healthy 300 lbs. Gym, running, yoga etc all day every day. Got the flu three years ago and winded up in the hospital. He went into a coma for a short term and managed to drop to 160 lbs. He made it out but is still dealing with issues today from the common flu.

By no means am I belittling your story and I thank you for sharing it. Just wanted to say that there are always extreme cases of anything (and maybe covid has more). Regardless, wish you nothing but the best and a full recovery. 

[GolfT3]

While on the subject of logic and the application of data we have so far: those who dismiss the early reports of 99% vaccine efficacy because of the rise of delta variant transmission recently should also be dismissing the early data around young people being largely safe from serious cases. % of hospitalized COVID patients below 60 years old has been rising significantly with the spread of Delta. Can’t dismiss early data that is inconvenient to your case and bear hug early data that you feel supports your position. 

[CommanderJWBond]

I would go to the American military's mantra "Don't Ask,  Don't Tell".  As an employer I would not ask anything HIPAA related.  None of my business.  I would encourage all employees to consult their primary care physician and do what is in their best interest.
As more and more variants emerge, Covid will be dealt with by therapeutic's.  Not vaccines.  We have never eradicated a virus in human history beyond small pox, but that is a unique one only to humans.  Most are okay with getting a bit sick, but no one wants to die or be in the hospital.  That is where theraputics come in.

It depends on what country you are in. It’s tricky, in some places the employer is legally liable if there is not a safe workplace. Now, I haven’t heard of many places where this has gone to a court, but I am sure it will be at some point.

[Cairo]

There is a new article out today, and I believe it is very important because it calls into question almost every claim made by all sides of this discussion--I encourage folks to read it:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/breakthrough-covid-19-cases-may-be-a-bigger-problem.html

[inter4alia]

2 hours ago, Cairo said:

There is a new article out today, and I believe it is very important because it calls into question almost every claim made by all sides of this discussion--I encourage folks to read it:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/breakthrough-covid-19-cases-may-be-a-bigger-problem.html

Very good article. Thanks for posting. 

[Cigar Surgeon]

[Bords]

That being said, we need to call a spade a spade. These "vaccines" aren't vaccines, just as [mention=15810]LordAnubis[/mention] said, they are temporary therapeutics that help you manage the disease. The modern drug companies wet dream, a constant and steady income flow for years. Government protections preventing generic versions, guaranteed payments from the taxpayer, hell we're even paying to market it to ourselves. If some one had written this as science fiction we wouldn't believe it.  
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pfizer+-+Kalamazoo/@42.2116813,-85.5616263,1481m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88179e8a4a6f93b3:0x2325084a527b0d2c!8m2!3d42.2132465!4d-85.5561375

Ah, the anti pharma angle how refreshing. Full disclosure, I”be been in pharma my whole career including a few years in vaccine marketing with a pharma giant.

First off, they are vaccines not therapies. Vaccines are never 100% effective at prevention so calling covid vaccines therapeutics is simply incorrect.

Secondly, vaccines have never been a big money maker for pharma after you factor in compassionate use in less developed areas. Therapeutics for chronic disease are the real cash cows.

Lastly, in defense of my industry, I love the fact that big bad pharma is still taking shit after two pharma companies basically saved the US from total collapse (with J&J in the mix and AZ helping worldwide). Remember the lockdowns and masking we all hated? Lifted due to the products created by pharma in record time. I haven’t heard any praise for the role pharma played in the partial return to normalcy. It’s not a perfect industry by a long shot but come on, at least don’t continue to bash the industry that allowed you to have some sort of return to life.

I really try to understand the anti vax viewpoint but as someone who respects data, it simply has no merit from a risk/benefit perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Trapper99]

7 hours ago, Cairo said:

There is a new article out today, and I believe it is very important because it calls into question almost every claim made by all sides of this discussion--I encourage folks to read it:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/breakthrough-covid-19-cases-may-be-a-bigger-problem.html

Very interesting, thank you for posting. Took my whole lunch and read it in it’s entirety. A few things the interviewee said that stuck out to me is that the shot more like a therapeutic instead of a vaccine. The other things that I recall is a few times mentioning that we don’t get the whole truth from .gov. Also, there is no denying the shot saved lives. 

It’s going to be interesting going forward I guess….the interviewee said herd immunity ain’t happening in the near future, which is what the shot was supposed to lead too. That’s not me crapping on the shot cause I acknowledged it saved lives, especially the elderly. It’s just, doesn’t seem the end is in sight.

 

9 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

 

   Picking up on the statistically zero stuff that might be of interest:

  This is more personal experience so just trying to show the other side here. I caught it last March at 33 years old, zero prior physical health concerns, I was running field hockey practice two days before I caught it. 17 months later I'm still unable to work, can't walk more than a mile in the flat with a stick, on bad days I have to take a break half way between brushing my teeth. Wife who is 27 and an ED nurse had a sniffy nose for a day. It's a crap shoot

  Incidentally the Covid she sees at work now is roughly divided up into 30% very old/frail people who are fully vaccinated but with extremely serious prior health conditions. The rest are 30-50 year olds not vaccinated, far more to the younger side of that due to there being more of them unvaccinated. She's been ventilating 30 year olds for the past month then getting email updates the next day or so saying they didn't make it and now have orphaned or single parent kids.

  This isn't a scaremongering exercise and I don't want to try and push you one way or another, but a snapshot of the reality of being unvaccinated regardless of age, those statistics look ok on paper but the reality of a single or even half digit percentages of a young population being effected is a lot larger in person.

  Delta is not messing around. I would exercise caution if you base your decision around it not effecting those of us who are relatively young 👍

Thank you for sharing. It obviously goes without saying brother I hope you make a full recovery, sooner rather than later and can get back on the field. 

I wish it was better known what causes this to effect people differently, especially comparing you to your wife. Is it really just random, or is there something else that is underlying and what is that? Either way, hope you get back to 100% 👍

[Corylax18]

1 hour ago, Bords said:

That being said, we need to call a spade a spade. These "vaccines" aren't vaccines, just as [mention=15810]LordAnubis[/mention] said, they are temporary therapeutics that help you manage the disease. The modern drug companies wet dream, a constant and steady income flow for years. Government protections preventing generic versions, guaranteed payments from the taxpayer, hell we're even paying to market it to ourselves. If some one had written this as science fiction we wouldn't believe it.  
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pfizer+-+Kalamazoo/@42.2116813,-85.5616263,1481m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88179e8a4a6f93b3:0x2325084a527b0d2c!8m2!3d42.2132465!4d-85.5561375

Ah, the anti pharma angle how refreshing. Full disclosure, I”be been in pharma my whole career including a few years in vaccine marketing with a pharma giant.

First off, they are vaccines not therapies. Vaccines are never 100% effective at prevention so calling covid vaccines therapeutics is simply incorrect.

Secondly, vaccines have never been a big money maker for pharma after you factor in compassionate use in less developed areas. Therapeutics for chronic disease are the real cash cows.

Lastly, in defense of my industry, I love the fact that big bad pharma is still taking shit after two pharma companies basically saved the US from total collapse (with J&J in the mix and AZ helping worldwide). Remember the lockdowns and masking we all hated? Lifted due to the products created by pharma in record time. I haven’t heard any praise for the role pharma played in the partial return to normalcy. It’s not a perfect industry by a long shot but come on, at least don’t continue to bash the industry that allowed you to have some sort of return to life.

I really try to understand the anti vax viewpoint but as someone who respects data, it simply has no merit from a risk/benefit perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1st, I'm not antivax. I'm vaccinated and I don't regret it. I also said I was happy to see the Pfizer logistics plant buzzing with activity. However, I'm not going to lump praise on the Pharma industry here. All those lockdowns and mask mandates are coming roaring back. We (the taxpayer) have also funded the majority of that research and development. Which I'm fine with, but lets not paint pharma companies as some altruistic, saintly group of people. Its a business, one of the most profitable businesses on the planet, all the involved companies stocks have exploded since the got involved. The cash is coming in the door from everywhere possible right now, get off your high horse. 

We've been told by everyone: "Get the Vax so we can go back to normal", now we're finding out that isn't the case. We're not going back to normal, we're going the wrong way again. The "marketing" on these things was WAY over the top. Thats mostly the Governments fault, but as the article posted above clearly states, the scientists involved knew these vaccines werent going to slow the spread. So why where we told they would? 

If you're happy to declare victory at halftime, fine, but we still have a LONG, LONG way to go before this is done. Hopefully, for your sake, it takes long enough for you to stack your 401k and retire. But think about all the people around the world who continue to suffer and will suffer for months or years to come before you gloat and take a victory lap. 

My cousin has been in Pharma her entire life. We love to joke about how most products never seem to make a profit. Its amazing, costs almost always seem to perfectly balance out with the profits. While the company is sending 50 execs to Bali for "team building events" twice a year. Flying my cousin and 3 others private from NJ down to Hawaii for a 6 hour meeting, then right back. The waste is staggering, and it seems to be a point of pride for the people involved. I have a very negative view of the pharma industry because I know how it works, not because I'm ignorant. 

[Jimmy_jack]

Vaccinated or not, is not the issue. Proper PPE at this point is. I do not think an employer should have a right to demand an employee be vaccinated. The information is very clear.

VACCINATION DOES NOT MAKE YOU IMMUNE OR A NON-TRANSMITTER.

There are breakthrough cases right now that make that a clear and evident fact. THE VACCINE IS NOT THE ANSWER. (guess what...it isnt a vaccine. Its just makes it not so bad if you do get it)

Require masks if you want. As an employer I feel that is your right. However, you cannot tell a person what they must do to, or put into their bodies. There are few exceptions in my mind. 

My wife is a nurse at a local large hospital and has been dealing first hand with CV19 patients from the beginning. Sometimes exclusively on a 2/1 ratio. She was one of the first people at her hospital that was told 'you floor is all covid from this point on'. She has been bed side non stop for the entire length of this pandemic. Switching PPE each time between patients. Being told to clean and reuse ppe when they can.She has many stories that are heart breaking.

She has not contracted covid. This is not from being vaccinated. She only got the shots this march. She has been covid free because of wearing a mask and washing her hands (although I think the surface and hand stuff is theatre). That is it. Period end of story. 

I should ask her to come on here and make a post on her views if y'all would be interested. My whole family (wife, two teenage boys and myself) are vaccinated for a while now. She demands that we wear masks. Why???? Why would she do that...we are vaccinated. Because she knows that it is NOT the answer.

 

[CommanderJWBond]

Lastly, in defense of my industry, I love the fact that big bad pharma is still taking shit after two pharma companies basically saved the US from total collapse (with J&J in the mix and AZ helping worldwide). Remember the lockdowns and masking we all hated? Lifted due to the products created by pharma in record time. I haven’t heard any praise for the role pharma played in the partial return to normalcy. It’s not a perfect industry by a long shot but come on, at least don’t continue to bash the industry that allowed you to have some sort of return to life.

I really try to understand the anti vax viewpoint but as someone who respects data, it simply has no merit from a risk/benefit perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is a story this reminds me of that you may have heard.

‘A giant flood happens and a man is stranded on his roof. He prays and prays for God to save him. A helicopter comes by and he turns it away. He continues to pray. A plane comes by and he waves it away. He prays some more. A boat comes by and he turns it away to. He continues to pray but eventually perishes. When he gets to heaven he asks God why he didn’t save him. “What do you mean, I sent you a boat, a plane, and a helicopter....you turned them all away.”

[Cairo]

1 hour ago, Trapper99 said:

It’s going to be interesting going forward I guess

My main take-away from the article is that the data is constantly changing--and given that reality we _really_ need to treat each other with respect.

I understand that policy makers are under the gun to react quickly (and I certainly would not want to be in their shoes) but the mis-information in PSAs disturbs me deeply.