Should Employers have the right to request staff be vaccinated?


Vaccination in the work place.   

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As a front line healthcare worker I'm absolutely sick and tired of people coming in with covid now.  We did it last year, and our hospital lost half its staff. Now we're understaffed like every h

No way should they have that right. People should not be forced to accept a medical procedure in order to work, especially not an experimental and potentially very dangerous one. And it is very much e

Exactly, it’s like the current hysteria with kids supposedly getting it in any serious numbers. Absolutely no scientific or statistical evidence behind it, pure fear propaganda. If you are vaccin

As the vaccine becomes more available in west aus we will probably start to require it.

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7 hours ago, Ciscojohansson said:

This sets a president. What will we do when the next disease comes? or the next problem that will end the world? Give up your freedoms and rights in the name of security and liberalism. Like Churchill said:The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists

A decision by a small business hardly sets that sort of precedent. Why take a business owners freedom to run it as he/she sees fit? Is that not problematic in itself? Not yours or my pocketbook at risk, and there may be legitimate reasons for making that mandatory.  

Why rob freedom in the name of freedom?

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29 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Not to put it too bluntly, but in that case vaccines don't exist. Even the ones that totally eliminated diseases. Smallpox is gone thanks to a vaccine that was 95% effective.

https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html

Very interesting! It just leads me to so many more questions then 😂 But thanks for the info. In any case i feel if peopel stopped thinking of it a prevention but rather a treatment then i think it would change things some what. But ofcourse even then there is much more at play than simply that.

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1 hour ago, LordAnubis said:

ery interesting! It just leads me to so many more questions then 😂

No worries. The main thing is that while diseases vary in contagiousness, what happens with herd immunity is that let's say the initial variant of covid was such that for each person that got it 2 or 3 others got it. If the vaccine is 90% effective and 90% get it, that would mean that afterwards for each person that got it much less than 1 new person would be infected, so the number of infected people would decrease over time instead of increase and eventually would hit 0 or thereabouts.

Initially they were hoping this would happen when 60-70% got vaccinated, levels we have hit in many countries, but the new variants are more contagious and would require a higher percentage of the population be vaccinated. This leads to accusations of moving the goalposts on one side of the issue, and desire to make it compulsory on the other because 90% vaccination rate is not likely anywhere without some sort of carrot/stick dynamic.

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5 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

countries all around the world have such regulations. given that this has been around for so long, perhaps you could detail which countries have tipped into totalitarianism thanks to those policies? or do you really think that providing similar policies for covid is actually the straw that break's the camel. 

Spanish Flu pandemic; Nazi Germany

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39 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

Spanish Flu pandemic; Nazi Germany

Losing WWI may have had something to do with it...

Also the article that suggests that link explains it by the increased fear of foreigners caused by outbreaks, not government regulations:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/1918-flu-pandemic-boosted-support-for-the-nazis-fed-study-claims.html

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8 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

a century ago, the US supreme court supported mandatory vaccinations. zucht v king. every single state in the US has requirements for mandatory vaccinations for children (they differ from state to state and there are some states with certain exemptions). there are other mandatory vaccinations there. think military for an example. in the States, it first happened back in the 1850s to fight smallpox. 

in australia, we have rules which mean no welfare for those who won't vaccinate their children. this was pre covid and has huge support. 

countries all around the world have such regulations. given that this has been around for so long, perhaps you could detail which countries have tipped into totalitarianism thanks to those policies? or do you really think that providing similar policies for covid is actually the straw that break's the camel. 

No, I am not saying this is the straw and I am not saying that the vaccine is a bad thing, I will take it when given the chance. But I understand the scepticism given that the there is no way to know the long term consequences of the vaccine. I know nothing about the history of US law or any other countries law so I cannot comment on that. I am saying that it is wrong of employers to demand that a person should put anything into their bodies.

In my mind an employer can only demand that an employee does his job, at the same time they should be able to hire/fire anyone. But let’s say that employers can demand proof vaccination and wish to check an employee. Here comes the digital covid passport which I believe will lead to a digital social credit system like the one China has. I think the social credit system will come at our own request and that the growing fear in our societies will be the reason for it. Be that fear of terrorism, crime, disease, climate or something else. In the end it is all a fear of death that we as a civilization (the West) or a culture cannot handle anymore and will do anything to not face up to.

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As long as an employer is responsible for the health and safety of their employees, customers and workplace, they should be allowed to dictate the rules under which that employment is provided (as long as it doesn't contravene Fed/State safety standards). If the employer lists that vaccination is a requirement of the job, then the employee has to choose whether they want the job or not. Mitigating circumstances of course should apply to those who, for medical reasons, are unable to take the vaccine.

 

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5 hours ago, Bijan said:

Losing WWI may have had something to do with it...

Also the article that suggests that link explains it by the increased fear of foreigners caused by outbreaks, not government regulations:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/1918-flu-pandemic-boosted-support-for-the-nazis-fed-study-claims.html

 "The article?" 

It's a broader corollary.  It's the consequences of social distrust, vilification, and altered social interactions easily exploited for political purpose -- provided you accept the premise of the studies.  I think that is the real heart of the debate if you step back, and it shouldn't be so casually dismissed IMO.      

   

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51 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

It was up to 70% prior to Delta, with Delta it swings between 40-70%

These numbers are OK. But they aren't the 95%+ we were told 6 months ago. I agree, the testing regime cant keep up with the spread. 40-70% cut in transmission rates isn't going to cut it though, not with our current vaccination pace around the globe. The virus is clearly outpacing the people charged with containing it, regardless of where we move the efficacy goal posts to next. 

11 hours ago, Bijan said:

Initially they were hoping this would happen when 60-70% got vaccinated,

We're there in the US right now, at least with adults. We're going the wrong way with case loads and hospitalizations. I pulled a very specific line from the Smallpox link you quoted:

 effective in preventing smallpox infection in 95% of those vaccinated

None of the Covid vaccines are actually this effective at preventing spread, and the percentages are getting worse the more we learn/test. If the current vaccines were actually anywhere near 95% effective At Preventing Infection we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

When you combine the rapidly declining efficacy of the current vaccines with the large group of people who refuse to get vaccinated, or cant, you get the current spikes we're seeing all over the globe. China, Cuba, the U.S.

Its great that fewer people are being hospitalized and dying, but that isn't going to stop this virus from continuing to mutate and the people "running the show" know that. 

I got my second jab of Moderna in late April, I dont regret it and I still think everyone should get vaccinated. Hell, I'm typing this up from a hotel room less than a mile away from Pfizer's massive packaging and distribution plant right now. Seeing the place BUZZING put a smile on my face. Supposedly every Pfizer dose shipped anywhere in north America came through this plant. 

That being said, we need to call a spade a spade. These "vaccines" aren't vaccines, just as @LordAnubis said, they are temporary therapeutics that help you manage the disease. The modern drug companies wet dream, a constant and steady income flow for years to come. Government protections preventing generic versions, guaranteed payments from the taxpayer, hell we're even paying to market it to ourselves. If some one had written this as science fiction we wouldn't believe it.  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pfizer+-+Kalamazoo/@42.2116813,-85.5616263,1481m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88179e8a4a6f93b3:0x2325084a527b0d2c!8m2!3d42.2132465!4d-85.5561375

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I would go to the American military's mantra "Don't Ask,  Don't Tell".  As an employer I would not ask anything HIPAA related.  None of my business.  I would encourage all employees to consult their primary care physician and do what is in their best interest.

As more and more variants emerge, Covid will be dealt with by therapeutic's.  Not vaccines.  We have never eradicated a virus in human history beyond small pox, but that is a unique one only to humans.  Most are okay with getting a bit sick, but no one wants to die or be in the hospital.  That is where theraputics come in.

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28 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

 

   Picking up on the statistically zero stuff that might be of interest:

  This is more personal experience so just trying to show the other side here. I caught it last March at 33 years old, zero prior physical health concerns, I was running field hockey practice two days before I caught it. 17 months later I'm still unable to work, can't walk more than a mile in the flat with a stick, on bad days I have to take a break half way between brushing my teeth. Wife who is 27 and an ED nurse had a sniffy nose for a day. It's a crap shoot

  Incidentally the Covid she sees at work now is roughly divided up into 30% very old/frail people who are fully vaccinated but with extremely serious prior health conditions. The rest are 30-50 year olds not vaccinated, far more to the younger side of that due to there being more of them unvaccinated. She's been ventilating 30 year olds for the past month then getting email updates the next day or so saying they didn't make it and now have orphaned or single parent kids.

  This isn't a scaremongering exercise and I don't want to try and push you one way or another, but a snapshot of the reality of being unvaccinated regardless of age, those statistics look ok on paper but the reality of a single or even half digit percentages of a young population being effected is a lot larger in person.

  Delta is not messing around. I would exercise caution if you base your decision around it not effecting those of us who are relatively young 👍

Thank you for sharing your experience and sorry you are going through that. I certainly do realize that there are extreme cases and some of which effect the young and healthy as well. 
 

My only comment back would be we see  this with other diseases too. For example, I have a family friend who competed in natural body building. Guy was probably a healthy 300 lbs. Gym, running, yoga etc all day every day. Got the flu three years ago and winded up in the hospital. He went into a coma for a short term and managed to drop to 160 lbs. He made it out but is still dealing with issues today from the common flu.

By no means am I belittling your story and I thank you for sharing it. Just wanted to say that there are always extreme cases of anything (and maybe covid has more). Regardless, wish you nothing but the best and a full recovery. 

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I would go to the American military's mantra "Don't Ask,  Don't Tell".  As an employer I would not ask anything HIPAA related.  None of my business.  I would encourage all employees to consult their primary care physician and do what is in their best interest.
As more and more variants emerge, Covid will be dealt with by therapeutic's.  Not vaccines.  We have never eradicated a virus in human history beyond small pox, but that is a unique one only to humans.  Most are okay with getting a bit sick, but no one wants to die or be in the hospital.  That is where theraputics come in.

It depends on what country you are in. It’s tricky, in some places the employer is legally liable if there is not a safe workplace. Now, I haven’t heard of many places where this has gone to a court, but I am sure it will be at some point.
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2 hours ago, Cairo said:

There is a new article out today, and I believe it is very important because it calls into question almost every claim made by all sides of this discussion--I encourage folks to read it:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/breakthrough-covid-19-cases-may-be-a-bigger-problem.html

Very good article. Thanks for posting. 

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