If you were to make a hail mary purchase on this one, what would you reasonably pay?

[99call]

7 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Im not sure how common they were based on how rare they seem to be. Surely if they had been around anywhere close to the 1980s when MRN states they were cut they'd be far more prevalent than they seem to be

For me it's the difference between Abundant, Common, Rare, Very Rare, and Ultra rare.     If you looked through Orientaprecios, and you see box, after box,  after box of Perfectos and Obsequios, Genares de Gener   I think it would be fair comment to say they may not have been common, but also they do not appear to be very rare,   rather just... Rare.         

On the other hand concerning the other marca names (Odeon etc)  I agree they seem to be Ultra rare, in indeed they did actually exist.   

[joeypots]

16 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Assume vendor non communicative with minimal history.

I'd pass on these. The cigars could be a treasure but I guess I just don't care enough to take even a minimum risk.

[MrBirdman]

11 hours ago, El Presidente said:

..but if you found he had other sealed boxes to sell.....would that change your mind?

If they are fakes someone has gone to a great deal of trouble constructing excellent replica boxes, with convincing aging of the exterior, for cigars without a well-established market and zero name recognition outside of CC nerds. 

I just wouldn’t have any expectations about the cigars being smokeable. But I would say the same thing about boxes on BR with impeccable provenance from the 1940’s. 

[Bijan]

45 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

If they are fakes someone has gone to a great deal of trouble constructing excellent replica boxes, with convincing aging of the exterior, for cigars without a well-established market and zero name recognition outside of CC nerds. 

Box could be real and they just replaced the seals. If they can expect to get $1000+ like was reported above it would be worth it to buy an empty box at auction and cheap cigars of the right vitola and fill the box. Sealing it means the cigars can be more off than usual. Not likely but what is more likely as the price creeps up.

[MrBirdman]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

Box could be real and they just replaced the seals. If they can expect to get $1000+ like was reported above it would be worth it to buy an empty box at auction and cheap cigars of the right vitola and fill the box. Sealing it means the cigars can be more off than usual. Not likely but what is more likely as the price creeps up.

That’s kinda what I’m getting at - the box seems real and that’s what I would be buying. So I wouldn’t pay more than $200, if that. 

[Bijan]

48 minutes ago, MrBirdman said:

That’s kinda what I’m getting at - the box seems real and that’s what I would be buying. 

I feel like I'd be buying that plus getting to open a relatively old box and see what's inside. I mean it will probably be disappointing but it's some small bit of excitement.

[MrBirdman]

1 minute ago, Bijan said:

I feel like I'd be buying that plus getting to open a relatively old box and see what's inside. I mean it will probably be disappointing but it's some small bit of excitement.

Indiana Jones taught me the danger of opening mysterious old boxes…

😉

[Chibearsv]

I don't hold the story behind a cigar to have very much value except for story time with friends while we smoke. 

Even though I've got a pretty good inventory, I smoke cigars, I don't collect them - so I'm either buying to sample or I buy because I already know I'll like them. 

The old box and cigars are kind of cool but I wouldn't pay for them at all under the described scenario.

[...]

The seller has to be aware that opening the box to show the cigars' condition, if they were confident in the condition of the content, would likely bring additional money. My guess is they don't trust the quality of the content so prefer to gamble with finding someone willing to buy truly blind as opposed to risking stumbling upon shredded or dried out cigars (or worse) and not being able to interest anyone.

They have multiple boxes... I'd wager they opened one and chose not to open any other box...

20$ just for the cool mystery box would be my offer, no more

[NSXCIGAR]

18 hours ago, 99call said:

For me it's the difference between Abundant, Common, Rare, Very Rare, and Ultra rare.     If you looked through Orientaprecios, and you see box, after box,  after box of Perfectos and Obsequios, Genares de Gener   I think it would be fair comment to say they may not have been common, but also they do not appear to be very rare,   rather just... Rare.         

On the other hand concerning the other marca names (Odeon etc)  I agree they seem to be Ultra rare, in indeed they did actually exist.   

It does appear that the Generes de Gener are the most common surviving cigar. I would assume that this is due to a larger market--probably England. It may have been the only model of the bunch imported to the UK. I would label the GdG as common to rare.

Anything but empty boxes of Perfectos are very rare. I did find this box of Perfectos that appears to be from the late 70s-early 80s so the Perfectos may have been the most common of the bunch: https://www.todocoleccion.net/coleccionismo/caja-puros-habanos-hoyo-monterrey-jose-gener-25-perfectos-cerrada~x114379243

Obsequios appears to be almost as common for the most part. I'm seeing about as many boxes as the Perfectos. Here's a partial box from what it at least the 70s: https://en.todocoleccion.net/collectable-packets-cigarettes/jose-gener-hoyo-monterrey-25-obsequios-9-cigarros-buen-estado~x55094443

I would consider surviving cigars or intact boxes like the OP of both Obsequios and Perfectos to be very rare. 

The Petit Hoyo looks even more hard to find, or at least just as hard. I would say rare to perhaps very rare. You claim to have seen a box of Versailles, so that makes it about as rare as Petit Hoyo. If it's ever existed it would be similarly rare to very rare. 

I'm willing to say that the rest (Odeon, Opera, Jeanne D'Arc and Gracielas) are at the very least very rare and are perhaps ultra rare at best. One would think at least one of those would have shown up which makes me think at least one or two may never have existed post-Rev, not to mention there doesn't even seem to be evidence of any of those 3 models pre-Rev.

[99call]

31 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

It does appear that the Generes de Gener are the most common surviving cigar. I would assume that this is due to a larger market--probably England. It may have been the only model of the bunch imported to the UK. 

Hhhmm I never seen any of these on any auction results in the UK,   only Spain 

All I was trying to suggest is that the initial list you put up seems to spilt into to rough categories. i.e fairly rare and ultra rare

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

Hhhmm I never seen any of these on any auction results in the UK,   only Spain 

All I was trying to suggest is that the initial list you put up seems to spilt into to rough categories. i.e fairly rare and ultra rare

No, I haven't as well but the GdG do appear more common in the wild with a few more surviving sticks and intact boxes. Perhaps it was a more expensive model or again, sold in more markets. 

And I do agree, there appears to be a distinction between some of these models but all would fall into the category of rare. Certainly at best the GdG would be "fairly rare" with Obsequios and Perfectos certainly being "rare". Petit Hoyo appears rarer than those, and the others I've yet to see any evidence of suggesting at the very least they are "ultra rare".

I will amend my original post in that I believe I had conflated the Obsequios with the Odeon. 

[Bijan]

If the info on CCW is correct, I'd say the Odeon would be the craziest/rarest one.

It's a Laguto No. 2 with a pigtail, a format that most likely didn't exist before the Cohiba Coronas Especiales which puts it late 60s.

However the identical sized le Hoyo du Dauphin came out in 1969.

And apparently the Odeon only came in a cajon of 100.

Here's my post about the Lagutio Vitolas where the Odeon was discussed in one of the replies by @NSXCIGAR:

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Bijan said:

And apparently the Odeon only came in a cajon of 100.

Good observation--I had missed that, and that also applies to the Opera and Versaille (correct spelling according to MRN--not Versailles @ATGroom)

So it appears that all three may have been extremely rare, custom items or special production runs only, or possibly never existed. They may have been available for special order post-Rev but no one ever did. Clearly there's a difference in scarcity between the models available in 25s and those in 100s, although it seems all are at least fairly rare to very rare. 

However, the Gracielas and Jeanne D'Arc are still highly elusive despite their being available in 25s. 

Also, according to MRN Generes de Gener was produced w/o cellophane. As we've seen, this isn't correct.

[Bijan]

13 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Versaille (correct spelling accoding to MRN--not Versailles @ATGroom)

13 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Also, according to MRN Generes de Gener was not produced in cellophane. As we've seen, this isn't correct.

MRN is sometimes wrong about cigars he hasn't seen. For example he has it as le Hoyo de Dauphin, where the SLB boxes clearly have le Hoyo du Dauphin. Always thought it was a weird grammar quirk until I saw one.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

MRN is sometimes wrong about cigars he hasn't seen. For example he has it as le Hoyo de Dauphin, where the SLB boxes clearly have le Hoyo du Dauphin. Always thought it was a weird grammar quirk until I saw one.

In the case of the Versaille(s) I don't know if anyone's ever seen one. Just confirming whether Alex is getting his info on this cigar from MRN or another source.

Something like cello vs w/o cello is forgivable for MRN--just needs to be addressed.

I think the "de" Dauphin is a typo since he does correctly have "du" for the rest. 

[Bijan]

As we've drifted off topic a bit more can't hurt.

Here's a 50 count dress box post revolution, pre embargo:

Not in MRN or CCW I think.

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Bijan said:

Not in MRN or CCW I think.

Yes, this has come up before. I've identified only a handful of cigars that escaped MRN. There aren't as many as one would think--MRN's comprehensiveness was nothing short of extraordinary. I was going back and forth with Alex about that and his list was longer but I was able to eliminate many of those as pre-Rev, limited market machine-made or those with no evidence of post-Rev carryover. 

Hoyo Conquistadores are one as well as those RyJ Condes that popped up a few months ago.

[Bijan]

4 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Hoyo Conquistadores are one as well as those RyJ Condes that popped up a few months ago.

Thanks, here's that thread. A fascinating read:

 

[BrightonCorgi]

I go for them.  Be a cool story no matter how it ends up.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

Thanks, here's that thread.

After re-reading that it seems even less than a handful were omitted by MRN--more like two or three cigars that have been confirmed to have actually existed that are not in MRN. 

It's much more likely that a cigar that's in MRN was never produced than vice versa, as MRN himself states many times. MRN clearly erred on the side of inclusion. 

[Bijan]

28 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

After re-reading that it seems even less than a handful were omitted by MRN--more like two or three cigars that have been confirmed to have actually existed that are not in MRN. 

Got at least one from your last post on that thread:

Por Larranaga Cinco Vegas (1968):

https://www.onlinecigarauctions.com/sold_lot_info.php?products_id=9203

Also Hoyo Petit Cetros, but this one doesn't have a year, so could be pre-rev:

https://www.onlinecigarauctions.com/sold_lot_info.php?products_id=4900

Edit:

Also Por Lorranaga Coronas Inmensos from the 70s, lot 54 here:

https://docplayer.net/90943085-Vintage-rare-mature-cigar-auction.html

Por Larranaga Transparentes 1968:

https://docplayer.net/amp/33527552-Vintage-rare-mature-cigar-auction.html

Los statos pensamientos 1960s:

https://docplayer.net/amp/33527552-Vintage-rare-mature-cigar-auction.html

Edit 2: (Although one has to wonder at these dates).

[NSXCIGAR]

22 hours ago, El Presidente said:

but if you found he had other sealed boxes to sell.....would that change your mind?

Ok, now I'm confused--seller has all these but is unknown/incommunicado? No info whatsoever?

If you're asking does this change anything I would say yes in terms of having those three sealed boxes be fake is pretty low. But again, with zero provenance, I'd be in the mindset of I'm buying for the box itself with the cigars being unsmokeable. 

The El Luchador might be interesting and the Cabanas is pretty uninteresting. Of course, the Hoyo Obsequios intact are rare.

I would stand by my original opinion of maybe $200 for the Hoyo. $50 for the Cabanas and depending on the history of the El Luchador, maybe the same as the Hoyo. 

Although you could buy them and have MO flip them for top dollar, provenance be damned. 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Also Hoyo Petit Cetros, but this one doesn't have a year, so could be pre-rev:

Wow, that's pretty lame with that one image from a mile away for those. 700 GBP paid too.

Typical MO...

[ATGroom]

2 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

After re-reading that it seems even less than a handful were omitted by MRN--more like two or three cigars that have been confirmed to have actually existed that are not in MRN. 

It's much more likely that a cigar that's in MRN was never produced than vice versa, as MRN himself states many times. MRN clearly erred on the side of inclusion. 

Can't say I agree with this.

I have a list of over 800 vitolas from post-Rev brands that don't appear in MRN (or on CCW). By post-Rev brands I mean brands like Hoyo, Partagas etc. If I include the pre-Rev discontinued brands it would be twice as many or more.

If you look at the official catalogues, which is the main resource MRN used, all before 1989 list only around 150 cigars, but say in their copy that the Cuban range is over 800. The 1989 catalogue is the closest to complete, listing 400 of a stated 500 cigar range.

I have catalogues on CCW from major factories in the 1950s that show hundreds of cigars that don't appear anywhere post-Rev, and I have seen documents that purport to list the entire production line of a few of the big factories in the mid-1960s that show hundreds of models that I have never seen listed anywhere else pre or post Rev.

I think the reality is that prior to the 1980 reforms, the factories basically operated independently and retailers could order whatever they wanted and have it produced in a batch. So while there were hundreds of cigars in the catalogue, their "discontinuation dates" are really pretty unrelated to the dates production actually ceased. But I think anything that was available pre-Rev was pretty much available for order until 1980, and some of it no doubt was produced.

Even think of something like the Dunhill Seleccion Suprema - hundreds of cigars in production up until the 1990s, largely undocumented in MRN and CCW.

One day I would like to add all this to CCW of course, but basically the info I have amounts to a name in a list, no exact size, no picture, no real idea of period or anything else. I document whatever I find in my own records and hopefully can fill it out at some point.

Another thing to think about: the MRN book is 400 pages. His volume 2 was going to be 2400. There's a lot more cigars in it.