Finding the balance between the common good, personal rights and the ability to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice.

[El Presidente]

I am very comfortable with vaccinations.

 I am quite  comfortable with people deciding not to get vaccinated as long as they pay the full cost  of the consequences ($ & health) .  I have two mates of my inner circle who are antivaxxers. Love them both and we have an agreement. They don't bitch to me if shit goes south and I won't bitch to them if I find myself growing a third testical on my forehead.

However, I get really uncomfortable when I see cartoonists being sacked for challenging the status quo. 

Leunig is a talented but very controversial cartoonist.  I like his attitude;

"But my job is to challenge the status quo, and that has always been the job of the cartoonist.”

Hard to argue?

Full Article here

 

I loved the cartoon. 

 

This is not a country speciic thread so don't make it one. 

 

This is a thread about how comfortable we are in the balance between the common good, personal rights and the abiltiy to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice. 

 

I am still finding my way on this topic and welcome an intelligent discussion devoid of "sides".  If you cannot do that, don't participate. 

Play the ball not the man.  

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

I recall only 5 years ago the world was rallying to the defense of cartoonists and satirists after the incident in France. 

What an incredible social shift the world has undergone since 2015.

[Bill Hayes]

Double vaxed here but I think it's a brilliant and controversial cartoon that's for sure. I guess it's a delicate balance between organisations/governments deeming something that they think might incite rebellion against freedom of speech. It's very much a big topic when it comes to news and also social media. And it seems very subject at times. I think we'll be dealing with these issues for some time, but then again, I think we always have since humans developed self awareness. Probably why I don't watch the news anymore really.  

[jfire]

I am Vaxxed and gave vaccinations at clinics on my days off when this shot show started. Came down with Covid around 10 days ago. Never hospitalized but it screwed with me pretty bad. I’m 41 and landscape 8-10 hours a day on days I’m off shift from the firehouse. So I’m in decent shape. I developed pneumonia and inner ear issues. 
If someone wants to stay unvaxed, let them. I honestly don’t think the vaccines are going to be as effective as the drug companies,CDC or WHO promised. (Yes different strains blah blah blah) From 91% to 41% efficacy in 6 months…..

[NickoBlanc]

Fwiw I hate that so many things are politicised, sensationalised and weaponised with the sole aim of dividing rather than uniting. I'm double vaccinated, I think people have a choice and whilst I respectfully disagree if you are an antivaxxer, I respect your decision, but not always your reasons...and you know what, that's absolutely OK!

I wish people on mass were becoming more comfortable with being uncomfortable rather than less...cartoons like that probe the idea that challenge is good and healthy and should be accepted, cus that's life!

[gustavehenne]

Freedom of speech, or drawing I guess in this case. You have the right to be offended but folk shouldn't be fired for holding a personal view. Sometimes I do think the world has gone a bit PC mad....

[MoeFOH]

"Now, more than ever, you have a responsibility to speak recklessly" - Dave Chappelle to fellow comedians. He's on the money again in my book. And that's a disgrace they sacked this dude over that cartoon. 

I'm not anti-vax. Got my first jab the other day. I am, of course, concerned by the timeframe and possible safety issues of a basically mandated drug... That said, I've taken a lot of drugs of unknown origin and repute into my body, so there's that. 

Could do without the third testicle on my forehead... but perhaps some pubic hair I could potentially part down the middle would be ok. 

[SCgarman]

I am not vaxxed, but not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in personal choice and responsibility. But I am anti-mandate. The whole mantra of "No jab-no more job" is a crock of shiatsu. My daughter who is 15 has also been vehemently opposed to this vaccine, and I as her father respect her decision and won't overrule her. This virus has brought out some of the best in humanity, but in more cases most of the worst hate, division and political power grabbing I have seen in my lifetime. 

[Ken Gargett]

11 minutes ago, stevenhaugen said:

Freedom of speech, or drawing I guess in this case. You have the right to be offended but folk shouldn't be fired for holding a personal view. Sometimes I do think the world has gone a bit PC mad....

in general yes, but there are times that the personal view simply does not work in an employment situation. 

but here, to sack our most iconic and much loved cartoonist for something that did not even make their paper is insane. personally, i think anyone not getting the vax is batcrap crazy and i'll struggle to muster much sympathy when things go pear-shaped but provided they don't hassle me or cause issues impacting me, i am fine with their decision. but yes, don't come whinging. 

we have seen how insane this has all got. leunig sacked here, big bird attacked elsewhere. different extremes. 

i've said it many times before, humanity is stuffed. doesn't stand a chance. 

[gustavehenne]

7 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

in general yes, but there are times that the personal view simply does not work in an employment situation. 

but here, to sack our most iconic and much loved cartoonist for something that did not even make their paper is insane. personally, i think anyone not getting the vax is batcrap crazy and i'll struggle to muster much sympathy when things go pear-shaped but provided they don't hassle me or cause issues impacting me, i am fine with their decision. but yes, don't come whinging. 

we have seen how insane this has all got. leunig sacked here, big bird attacked elsewhere. different extremes. 

i've said it many times before, humanity is stuffed. doesn't stand a chance. 

Fair point and agreed Ken. I work in a large corporate and indeed we need to be incredibly mindful of what we say although I’m not a satirist or a cartoonist (some have claimed comedian or bastard )

I don’t understand why folk don’t get their vaccinations either and I do think they are a bit crazy but hey, that’s their choice.

People are too black and white these days and don’t deal in shades of grey or avoid trying to understand context - that’s what kills things in my view 

[oneizzzz]

I think in the case of cartoons, it is often the case that the cartoonist is illustrating from the platform of "morally/ethically correct" or at least "majority-opinion." Because how else could they keep a job??  But if a cartoon is art, isn't its purpose to make us think and feel?

A lot of the modern ethical framework aligns with the man in the original Tiananmen Square photo.  So if we have an assumption that contemporary cartoons align with contemporary ethics, it's jarring to see a cartoon which doesn't.  Right now popular opinion is not, "is my opinion correct?"  Rather it is, "my opinion is correct."

Like Leunig said, his "job is to challenge the status quo, and that has always been the job of the cartoonist."

I think what that cartoon illustrates is how hard it can be to stand up to the pressure/momentum of popular opinion.  If that's the case, then the status quo that's being challenged in the cartoon is the popular belief that "our opinion is correct!"  But it's probably not making a comment about whether getting vaxxed is right or wrong.  Just pointing out that it's an ethically rich topic.

I think more and more these days, we're loosing the ability to think neutrally and question ourselves.  As nuanced global dialogue becomes more difficult based on the scale of social media, we learn to judge reductively - right or wrong.  And implicit in that judgment is the assumption that we already know what's right or wrong.  I think good art challenges my level of awareness - how far back can I step when I look at myself?  And I think that cartoon is successful.

[Edicion]

Some news yesterday that a country has decided that Covid 19 patients who choose to not to be vaccinated have to foot their own bills starting Dec 8.

Point being why should you get expensive treatment if you ignore what the Health authorities advise ? 

(new billing measure applies only to those who choose not to be vaccinated despite being medically eligible) 

[dominattorney]

5 minutes ago, Edicion said:

Some news yesterday that a country has decided that Covid 19 patients who choose to not to be vaccinated have to foot their own bills starting Dec 8.

Point being why should you get expensive treatment if you ignore what the Health authorities advise ? 

(new billing measure applies only to those who choose not to be vaccinated despite being medically eligible) 

I'd agree that thos were fair only if the pharma companies were not immune from civil liability in the event their vaccines prove harmful. Too bad the double standard has already reared its ugly head some places. 

[Ken Gargett]

8 minutes ago, Edicion said:

Some news yesterday that a country has decided that Covid 19 patients who choose to not to be vaccinated have to foot their own bills starting Dec 8.

Point being why should you get expensive treatment if you ignore what the Health authorities advise ? 

(new billing measure applies only to those who choose not to be vaccinated despite being medically eligible) 

that might test a few principles. 

no idea which country - will have to google - but very happy to see that here. when you look at how the health and hospital services are stretched so thin around the world, and people with many serious issues outside covid are simply not getting the care they need and deserve, i'd make this a priority everywhere if i ruled the world. 

[Edicion]

1 minute ago, Ken Gargett said:

that might test a few principles. 

no idea which country - will have to google - but very happy to see that here. when you look at how the health and hospital services are stretched so thin around the world, and people with many serious issues outside covid are simply not getting the care they need and deserve, i'd make this a priority everywhere if i ruled the world. 

That's exactly it. Despite being one of the wealthiest countries in the world, they've taken a view that unvaccinated make up the majority of patients who require intensive inpatient care and disproportionately contribute to the strain on their healthcare resources. It's not a route they want to go down, reading the details, it's more of a necessity. 

[Fuzz]

I say let anti-vaxx protests go ahead, aerosolise the vaccine and load up the gas cannister launchers. Or add it to the rest of the mind control drugs in airplane contrails....

In other news, Big Bird is now a Communist for promoting vaccination.

[rcarlson]

It's clear that the vaccines are useful primarily for limiting the severity of breakthrough infections, not for limiting the spread of the disease. That puts vaccines squarely in the category of self-interest. If people think getting vaccinated is the best bet for their own health, as I do, great. But there is little or no argument for forcing them to get vaccinated for the sake of someone else’s well-being.

[El Presidente]

17 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

that might test a few principles. 

no idea which country - will have to google

Singapore

[Ken Gargett]

7 hours ago, rcarlson said:

It's clear that the vaccines are useful primarily for limiting the severity of breakthrough infections, not for limiting the spread of the disease. That puts vaccines squarely in the category of self-interest. If people think getting vaccinated is the best bet for their own health, as I do, great. But there is little or no argument for forcing them to get vaccinated for the sake of someone else’s well-being.

i would have thought the previous posts showed the exact opposite?? leave aside whether or not getting vaxxed limits the disease, protects others etc, because i think that is now a dead horse here and elsewhere, other than to say i suspect you are aware that many do not agree with you.

given the stress on health systems around the world, with many places stopping certain procedures and simply not having the fit and healthy staff to deal with others, if joe bloggs gets vaxxed and therefore does not get covid and so does not have to go to hospital and take up a bed and resources and staff time and the doctors can allocate their time to others, whether covid related or not, how on earth is that not benefiting someone else's well-being? i would have thought it the very definition of benefiting other members of the community? what am i missing? 

 

7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Singapore

thanks. was not going to ask in case i transgressed certain rules.

perhaps big bird originally came from singapore? lord help us if they discover he is an illegal. 

[El Presidente]

Just now, Ken Gargett said:

 

given the stress on health systems around the world, with many places stopping certain procedures and simply not having the fit and healthy staff to deal with others, if joe bloggs gets vaxxed and therefore does not get covid 

This is where you have to be careful. 

Vaccinated Joe Boggs will get Covid. He is likely however not to need hospitalisation. 

I know it is a small clarification but an important one. Vaccination does not prevent covid. 

[El Presidente]

Just now, Ken Gargett said:

thanks. was not going to ask in case i transgressed certain rules.

perhaps big bird originally came from singapore? lord help us if they discover he is an illegal. 

Pretty sure I bumped into him at Crazy Horse nightclub on the top floor of the 4 floors of whores. 

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, El Presidente said:

This is where you have to be careful. 

Vaccinated Joe Boggs will get Covid. He is likely however not to need hospitalisation. 

I know it is a small clarification but an important one. Vaccination does not prevent covid. 

fair point but the result is the same. he gets vaxxed and others benefit. 

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, El Presidente said:

Pretty sure I bumped into him at Crazy Horse nightclub on the top floor of the 4 floors of whores. 

i'd swear i saw him down a back alley in bangkok at 3am many years ago. no wait, that one was of our premier's chief advisors. 

[Fuzz]

15 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i'd swear i saw him down a back alley in bangkok at 3am many years ago. no wait, that one was of our premier's chief advisors. 

Shhh! That was a covert meeting to discuss high level government plans to supply Thailand with Australian macadamia nuts. The advisor was showing the Thai agent the nuts he clandestinely smuggled in his pants.

[BrightonCorgi]

Denying of forcing someone to pay for medical bills that would not normally be an issue due to vaccination status is pure evil.  Are you going to weight everyone and decide if their diabetes or heart disease could've been prevented?  How about if their genetic make up is more susceptible to certain afflictions?  Why should we have to pay for either?