Finding the balance between the common good, personal rights and the ability to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice.

[dominattorney]

9 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

No i's not. 

From Ireland/UK/Oz/Canada/Germany/France

Over 90% of people in ICU today from Covid symptoms are unvaccinated. 

Game over on that argument. 

I should have been more careful in my wording. I do not dispute that the evidence supports a finding that the vaccine prevents or reduces the likelihood of suffering severe symptoms. I have not seen anything reliable to suggest it prevents symptoms generally.  You can feel pretty sick without having to go to the hospital. I remember having having Nora virus. No fun. I had a flu in 2012 that laid me on my ass for 3 weeks. My point is that if I were personally more worried about the effects of covid, even if vaccinated, I would not carry on with life as normal, going to crowded bars, concerts, etc without a mask or social distancing. 

[MrBirdman]

8 minutes ago, dominattorney said:

I have not seen anything reliable to suggest it prevents symptoms generally. 

The jury isn’t out on this either, unless you include every single known variant under the sun. The mRNA vaccines definitely reduce transmission of the original coronavirus, and even with Delta (now dominant) they are all at over 50% - though keep in mind this is measured a few weeks after the final dose. 

Vaccines reduce both your chances of contracting COVID and (probably) your chance of spreading it if you do experience an infection. There really isn’t any debate about this in the scientific community - if the vaccines didn’t reduce your likelihood of getting Covid they’d never have been approved even at the lowered bar they set for Covid vaccines. 

[El Presidente]

Just now, dominattorney said:

I should have been more careful in my wording. I do not dispute that the evidence supports a finding that the vaccine prevents or reduces the likelihood of suffering severe symptoms. I have not seen anything reliable to suggest it prevents symptoms generally.  You can feel pretty sick without having to go to the hospital. I remember having having Nora virus. No fun. I had a flu in 2012 that laid me on my ass for 3 weeks. My point is that if I were personally more worried about the effects of covid, even if vaccinated, I would not carry on with life as normal, going to crowded bars, concerts, etc without a mask or social distancing. 

While vaccinated, I know I will catch Covid and get ill.  Hopefully as a vaccinated adult it won't prove more than a bad flu. 

That is the best that I can expect. Vaccination keeps me out of hospital and that helps everybody.  

I am happy to wash/disinfect my hands but I am not wearing a mask for the rest of my life when going into crowded areas.  Happy to take that gamble as I am prepared to get flu"ish" symptoms. 

[dominattorney]

12 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

While vaccinated, I know I will catch Covid and get ill.  Hopefully as a vaccinated adult it won't prove more than a bad flu. 

That is the best that I can expect. Vaccination keeps me out of hospital and that helps everybody.  

I am happy to wash/disinfect my hands but I am not wearing a mask for the rest of my life when going into crowded areas.  Happy to take that gamble as I am prepared to get flu"ish" symptoms. 

This I agree with entirely. We are all free to make our own decisions with respect to risk. I did not mean to open a can of worms by suggesting that vaccination does not contribute to the common good, or is not something that should be recommended. Perhaps some feel that way sincerely but I do not share this view. I post on this forum during my down time on my phone. Generally about cigars. I can misspell things and say what comes to mind without substantial risk of offending anyone. Perhaps I should have been more careful with this topic. That perhaps is rhetorical. I recognize I should have avoided posting entirely based on my relationship to this forum being generally casual.

As best I can put my feelings, which I feel I am entitled to, and now feel compelled to spell out more clearly: in my opinion, most people are not likely to be hospitalized or die if they get covid, even without the vaccine.  This is a generalization based upon the death rate of covid being in the single digit percentage range. It is not a statement intended to downplay the severity of the virus in general. The vaccine reduces the chance of experiencing severe symptoms, and likely of transmitting the disease as readily readily others. Those of us in the lower risk camp should take the vaccine and take that gamble you referred to above if they see fit. Living life is about managing risks to some degree. I am with you in that being vaccinated I am comfortable going to the gym and venturing into society. I recognize I can still get sick. I recognize I may get badly Ill. I accept that the risk of my being hospitalized or dying exists, though I consider it to be negligible. Without some risk life is not as vibrant.

However. There is a population of folks who are at an appreciably higher risk to get seriously Ill, requiring hospitalization, perhaps even after being vaccinated. There is still a percentage of vaccinated folks in ICU afterall. I know some members of this more high risk population personally. I think they misapprehend the fact that the vaccine may not prevent them from becoming Ill. These folks are also free to take the gamble you speak of. Live as you will. However, I've noticed that some vaccinated people are far more cavalier and don't see it as the gamble you have described. I know a couple who are both high risk individuals. They got vaxxed and now attend football games and concerts feeling that they are in the clear. It is my personal belief that their attitude is overly optimistic and not based in reality. They are still taking a risk. The issue is they do not recognize that fact. I worry for them and those like them. They are absolutely out there. 

[El Presidente]

I don't disagree with you. 

People should educate themselves on issues from a wide range of credible sources.   Many don't and make sub optimal decisions. Some do and still make sub optimal decisions.  

That is all fine and dandy until those sub optimal decisions start impacting on others (ICU flooding etc). 

 

 

[Meesterjojo]

Vaccines are one thing. As a nurse I don't care if people get a vaccine or not. I do care if you're a plague rat and run around in businesses without a vaccine. And I care if you come for medical aid- folks forget that no one in Healthcare signed up to risk our lives, especially for dumbasses. But I don't care otherwise. I left society and cities for that reason. Too many people care about the wrong shit.

Wrong shit like canceling other people for things like making cartoons. I get it, maybe these cartoonists have some influence on folks and are exacerbating a bad situation. So be it. But why censor them? People are flawed. We're weak and willfully ignorant of many things. We're motivated by self preservation, food, reproduction.

It seems nowadays that everyone wants to just block out everything they don't agree with. Rather than self regulate and ignore, or take steps to remove one's self from a bad situation, folks get offended and try to strike out and hurt others until the bad thing is gone.

The sooner my home is finished the better. I'd rather just cancel myself, and it seems I am. If society says these behaviors are acceptable then fine. I left. Things won't get better. I realized that forever ago. Unless you can control your surroundings you'll always be subjected to the whims of the society you live in.

[El Presidente]

18 minutes ago, Meesterjojo said:

 

It seems nowadays that everyone wants to just block out everything they don't agree with. Rather than self regulate and ignore, or take steps to remove one's self from a bad situation, folks get offended and try to strike out and hurt others until the bad thing is gone.

 

To be fair that has occured throughout history.  

.......it is built in the human DNA 

[Ken Gargett]

19 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Denying of forcing someone to pay for medical bills that would not normally be an issue due to vaccination status is pure evil.  Are you going to weight everyone and decide if their diabetes or heart disease could've been prevented?  How about if their genetic make up is more susceptible to certain afflictions?  Why should we have to pay for either?

i'm assuming you mean denying or forcing? i have never said denying them care. as for paying, health systems differ all around the world. sadly, it is not free and total health care for all. someone, somewhere has to pay. look at health insurance around the world. sure, safety nets needed. are people not forced to pay for health care in many of our supposedly most civilised countries? i would suggest that the health care issue is a bigger issue for another day.

my point is that if someone (and as has been said several times, not talking about those who have medical reasons or genetics etc) deliberately chooses not to take a vax and then gets ill, should they get priority over someone who has done the right thing? should we all just keep funding those who choose no vax and then expect to get treated for the disease? and i am not opposed to your other arguments re sports, weight etc, but hardly the same thing. 

[Ken Gargett]

9 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Because we are all children of Abraham, humans, and should be given the same care & privilege regardless of our choices, lifestyle, or socioeconomic background. 

Should we not treat an accident victim if we found out they were speeding or fell asleep at the wheel?  How about exclude any paying for any treatment of a sports related injury?  It was their choice to play sports.  Why should the rest of society pay for this?

Picking and choosing who gets care or under what pretense is plain wrong, shameful, and totally selfish behavior.

 

you say it is wrong, shameful etc for a health care system to make choices (a reality we all know is unavoidable on occasions as we simply do not have unlimited resources). and yet you insist that those to be treated by the system be allowed to make whatever choices they want? sometimes their choices lead to the system having to make choices. 

any health/travel insurance policy takes into account choices. why shouldn't the overall system? not saying no treatment but i can understand the desire for priorities and also for those who make certain choices having to pay for them. 

as for abraham and his friends, i would have thought that this was all enough of a mess without bringing in creationism/religion. last time i looked, no sign of abraham in my family tree. 

[Tstew75]

Fun read so far

[Meesterjojo]

34 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

To be fair that has occured throughout history.  

.......it is built in the human DNA 

That's my point. This isn't new. I may be a bit rambling as well just having woken up. Sorry. 

[Ken Gargett]

6 hours ago, Grateful13 said:

ghouls are trying to push their poison onto children, who are effectively at zero risk from covid. Truly evil people. 

nothing judgmental there! now the vaccines are poison. and these ghouls and truly evil people just happen to include the vast majority of competent medical professionals. 

i know it is the proverbial horse which has been flogged to death but, like a great many people who believe the vaccine is the safe (or at the very least, the safest) and sane way to go, we do not blindly accept what the government, any government, says. rather we look to the medical experts and the overwhelming scientific evidence.

of course, we have seen so often lately that if the science proves inconvenient then great numbers of people simply decide it must be wrong (based on, far too often, politicians - yes, members of the government - who say so). but that must be different. 

[Ken Gargett]

4 hours ago, NYgarman said:

Perfectly preventable outcome? That is your subjective opinion. Can you emphatically state nobody has not died from taking a covid vaccine? Can you state nobody can become infected or spread the virus after being vaxxed? You know, we are not all made the same. Some people for one reason or another cannot tolerate vaccines. They may be allergic and may die. This vaccine is not a one size fits all for everyone. 

not sure how many times this has also been covered but not really subjective at all. people have died from the vaccine. tragic but it happens. but the number is infinitesmal compared to the number dying from covid. years ago, had to do one of those heart tests for a check-up. you run on the treadmill etc. they told me around one in 10,000 die from the test. i'm sure a doctor could update that or correct me. but overall, the test saved so many more. there are examples of this all through medicine. it happens. but given the odds each way with covid, it is insanity to use this as the excuse for not getting the vax. 

and yes, again i believe it is not subjective. people get or spread covid post vax. but all the evidence suggests that the effects are much more manageable and minor compared to those who are not vaxxed. 

these are no longer legitimate arguments. 

[Ken Gargett]

9 hours ago, rcarlson said:

I didn't realize that "many" disagree that the vaccines are not as effective as advertised.  But I guess I shouldn't be surprised at that.

I also believe that the hospitals are flooded with vaxed and unvaxed.  According to the CDC, the US vax rate is approximately 79% and it is quite apparent to anyone paying attention that transmission rates are not confined to unvaxed by any measure.  As I expected, but perhaps many others did not, there are spikes and declines in hospitalizations and deaths that do not correlate with vaccination rates.  Even if one accepts that the numbers are not exaggerated (e.g. hospitalized/dying "from covid" versus "with covid"), the majority of hospitalizations and deaths belong to the vaccinated, though I suppose you may choose to disagree with that too.  Not sure why, but I don't think it matters.  You couldn't get unanimity on whether chocolate milk comes from chocolate cows.      

There are a multitude of reasons why people choose not to be vaxed, such as known medical risks, religious, previous infection, distrust etc.  You may sweep those aside, but I do not.  So, if you're comfortable with the efficacy and universal administering of the vax regardless of other considerations, it's unlikely that the title of this post will reflect its content.  The paradox is that greater confidence in the efficacy of the vaccines strengthens my point, if my comment is read fairly.          

right, first, i am staggered that you claim not to have realised that many disagreed with your first point. you have been involved in numerous debates on this forum alone and that has been raised many times. hard to imagine you've missed it. 

"the majority of hospitalizations and deaths belong to the vaccinated". it took barely any time to check this and the latest figures - plenty of other info and while it does vary, it is all pretty much along the same lines - suggest that the deaths between non-vax'd and vax'd are 16 to 1. so yes i choose to disagree. not sure what chocolate cows have to do with it but i doubt they'd believe you either. 

and yet again we have someone throwing up the claim of ignoring the medical risks to a small number. this has been covered endlessly. indeed, as i saw somewhere recently and it does seem appropriate, 'add nausea'. but i suppose if nothing else left, rehash the old fables. 

[Bijan]

To the poing about people dying of vaccines, or more vaccinated people getting sick or dying of covid.

Here are the stats for seat belts in Quebec, Canada.

https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/road-safety/behaviours/seat-belts/did-you-know

90% of people wore seatbelts.

30% of deaths are among people not wearing seatbelts.

So in this case the majority of deaths in motor vehicle accidents are in the seatbelted (70%).

And perhaps someone died at some point because the seatbelt delayed their escape from a flaming vehicle.

However I think even the above stats say that you're about 4 times more likely to die if not wearing a seatbelt.

[Bijan]

I mean to really belabor this point if absolutely everyone except some guy named Jim were vaccinated. All the cases would be in the vaccinated, unless Jim happened to get covid.

[Ken Gargett]

5 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I mean to really belabor this point if absolutely everyone except some guy named Jim were vaccinated. All the cases would be in the vaccinated, unless Jim happened to get covid.

indeed! and isn't jim feeling a bit silly right about now. 

[Bijan]

Finally as to why we're seeing relatively high vaccinated deaths/hospitalizations even where vaccination rates are not that high, that has to do with not correcting for age.

In those places many more old people are vaccinated, and even though it reduces their risks of dying or getting sick they are still more likely to die or get sick than unvaccinated young people. So if you don't correct for age you'll have vaccinated old people vs unvaccinated young people and that will throw off your stats. There's a great article about that somewhere, I'll try to find it.

Edit:

Article is here:

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-efficacy-vs-severe-disease-be-strong-when-60-of-hospitalized-are-vaccinated

Example of Simpson's paradox.

[MrBirdman]

Here is information on infection rates presented by the Texas Department of Health earlier this month. It breaks down by age. It includes information through September. This is based on data for Texas, which should be more or less representative of the entire US. People 12-17 actually saw the biggest impact. The impact is pretty clear cut: 

And here is the data on death rates by age group:

Source: https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/Cases-and-Deaths-by-Vaccination-Status-11082021.pdf

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, clint said:

Not the best analogy.   People doing the heart tests are generally people who have symptoms of heart disease.  Perfectly healthy people of all ages are being begged, bribed, bullied, and coerced to inject something into their bodies that has a chance to seriously harm them or even kill them.  Not the same thing in any respect.

i'm sure doctors among us could better advise us both but what you say is not strictly true. many companies require regular check-ups among executives and staff, not just those with heart issues. insurance issues often require tests. people doing regular physicals will get such tests. i believe it to be far, far wider than just those with heart disease. can't recall why i had to get mine - many years ago - but it certainly wasn't for heart disease. i think it was part of a full checkup. and i'd still argue it is a better analogy than chocolate cows, whatever that means? 

and whilst we are misconstruing, you talk of 'perfectly healthy people' as though they are immune from covid (you aren't arron rodgers by any chance?). so no 'perfectly healthy people' have ever got covid? none have died from it? none have spread it? what utter nonsense. 

you argue that all these people are being "begged, bribed, bullied, and coerced". surely the vast majority of those vaxxed made that decision without any bullying or whatever. they understood that covid represents a much greater threat to them, and offers a much higher chance of killing them, than not being vaxxed. 

[Ken Gargett]

12 minutes ago, clint said:

 

sorry, you now want young children to make an informed decision. children have parents or guardians. that is their job. spare me. 

[GolfT3]

This has been mentioned briefly before, but what is most fascinating to me about this situation is that vaccines have been required for various things for decades (public schools, university, travel, jobs, etc.) without massive or large scale public resistance. We aren’t really crossing the moral or proverbial rubicon for the first time here.

Whats different now? My guess is that it has nothing to do with the vaccine and it has little to do with a mandates (which everyone has adhered to in the past). It’s about where you get your information, who you choose to listen to, and how susceptible you are to those sources. Those are the things that have changed in the modern era.

[Ken Gargett]

6 hours ago, clint said:

 

https://rumble.com/vh5rjz-dying-with-and-from-covid-19-a-who-guideline.html

 

that is a clip from June of last year. not sure it is breaking news. 

 

6 hours ago, GolfT3 said:

This has been mentioned briefly before, but what is most fascinating to me about this situation is that vaccines have been required for various things for decades (public schools, university, travel, jobs, etc.) without massive or large scale public resistance. We aren’t really crossing the moral or proverbial rubicon for the first time here.

Whats different now? My guess is that it has nothing to do with the vaccine and it has little to do with a mandates (which everyone has adhered to in the past). It’s about where you get your information, who you choose to listen to, and how susceptible you are to those sources. Those are the things that have changed in the modern era.

absolutely!

[El Presidente]

Back to the topic. 

Anti Vax or Pro Vax isn't the issue. 

Regardless of where you are sitting on the debate, you have the right to express your opinion and the responsibility to support it with facts (as they exist now) should it be questioned/challenged.  I am not a big believer in alternative facts. 

Play the ball and not the man. Rise above the FB/twitter space. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

i look forward to rejoining the fun later. i've just cracked the new Bolly - B13 - and so priorities. 

 

6 hours ago, clint said:

So that makes it irrelevant?  Give me a break.

before the bolly, just to say, not at all. just that i suspect most are familiar with it. just as they will be familiar with other reports suggesting that the death toll is much higher. i'd put money on the fact that neither of us knows the correct position.