Finding the balance between the common good, personal rights and the ability to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice.

[MrBirdman]

20 minutes ago, clint said:

 

https://rumble.com/vh5rjz-dying-with-and-from-covid-19-a-who-guideline.html

 

I assume you are referring to the comments on how deaths are counted. Even if that had a significant impact on numbers, which seems very unlikely, it would still not account for the discrepancy between vaccinated and unvaccinated death rates, and has nothing to do at all with infection rates. 

[El Presidente]

2 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i look forward to rejoining the fun later. i've just cracked the new Bolly - B13 - and so priorities. 

...I am assuming your recovery post last weeks near death experience is going welll.....

[AndrewNR]

I spent a decade in hospitality as a successful chef then moved into social work a few years ago. 

I haven't wasted that time, you should see the file human resources has on me.

There's a curious marriage between intolerance and free speech which I think has possibly gotten to its lowest in recent times. 

The world could do with more eastern philosophy and the art of war and less political correctness. 

[NSXCIGAR]

18 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

people objected because they did not want to be told that they had to wear one.

Slightly different here. Driving on a public roadway isn't a right--it's a privilege controlled by the state. No one is forced to drive--one can always walk, bike or take a bus. 

I would also say state control of any activity on public property is just as justified, e.g. helmets for bikers. 

What goes into one's body or medical procedures are a totally different story. 

18 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

but i would argue that there are, sadly, a great many more white supremacists around, of varying degrees

I'm not sure how many degrees of white supremacy there are. One either believes whites to be superior to other races or not. One thing I've learned about racists is that real racists don't hide or run from their racism. They're proud to be racist and aren't afraid to let anyone and everyone know it. 

How many of those people do you know? I don't know any, and I don't know anyone who knows any. Sure, I'm sure there's no shortage of white supremacy online but I'd be shocked if it were more than a few dozen people behind the largest online footprints and a few thousand goofballs who follow it, half of those mentally ill to some extent. And you'd better believe law enforcement agencies are all over these groups and sites agitating and encouraging these bozos to more radical behavior.

The comparison is that to be "anti-vax" is a very radical and unscientific position--just like white supremacy. No one seems to be able to produce these people when pressed. Sure, they might trot out a token wacko every now and again but one does not a movement make. 

I don't fear society being influenced by people into beastiality despite there being many of them. 

[Bijan]

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm not sure how many degrees of white supremacy there are. One either believes whites to be superior to other races or not.

If that is the definition, then absolutely no shortage of such people.

 

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

One thing I've learned about racists is that real racists don't hide or run from their racism. They're proud to be racist and aren't afraid to let anyone and everyone know it. 

One thing I've learned is that people don't want to be pariahs or outcasts, more than they want to be proud of their beliefs. Expressing straight racist views is not socially acceptable and so most people who hold such views do not express them directly. But do so indirectly.

The view that those people aren't real racists is to me entirely wrong. Your first definition was a sound one. But this second statement does not hold water to me.

[El Presidente]

11 minutes ago, Bijan said:

If that is the definition, then absolutely no shortage of such people.

Let me flip the scrip 

No shortage of people in this region who believe their version of "asian" ism is superior to all other cultures Same for islamic cultures, same for Aussies and not just the redneck aussies.  

Racism for the most part is central to the human DNA. I am as guilty as any.

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

Let me flip the script 

Oh yes definitely, agreed. But I was just surprised at @NSXCIGAR, as an American not knowing anyone or knowing anyone "who knows anyone", who holds such beliefs! As you say it is very common to humans.

[Ej456]

Endemic I think is an appropriate word. Normal is relative to ones experience  

[rcarlson]

3 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Here is information on infection rates presented by the Texas Department of Health earlier this month. It breaks down by age. It includes information through September. This is based on data for Texas, which should be more or less representative of the entire US. People 12-17 actually saw the biggest impact. The impact is pretty clear cut: 

And here is the data on death rates by age group:

Source: https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/Cases-and-Deaths-by-Vaccination-Status-11082021.pdf

And yet:

111 out of 168 newly announced “covid deaths”–66%–were among the fully vaccinated. Likewise, 347 out of 883 hospital admissions for covid (or with covid)–39%–were of the fully vaccinated. There is nothing unique about Minnesota.

Confirmation bias is a bitch.  

[SirVantes]

48 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Slightly different here. Driving on a public roadway isn't a right--it's a privilege controlled by the state. No one is forced to drive--one can always walk, bike or take a bus. 

I would also say state control of any activity on public property is just as justified, e.g. helmets for bikers.

Right, so no vaccine, no walking on public pavements/sidewalks, no driving on public roads, no taking public transportation.  No activity or presence on any public property or infrastructure.  No access to public services.

50 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

What goes into one's body or medical procedures are a totally different story. 

19 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

And how long have we all been ingesting flourine from the water supply? Including children.

[Bijan]

Just now, rcarlson said:

111 out of 168 newly announced “covid deaths”–66%–were among the fully vaccinated. Likewise, 347 out of 883 hospital admissions for covid (or with covid)–39%–were of the fully vaccinated. There is nothing unique about Minnesota.

Confirmation bias is a bitch.  

As I said in my post what are the stats as to age distribution. You can't just lump everyone together.

You have to look at percentage vaxxed at each age group and percentage dead at each age group.

For example if  a large precentage of 90+ year olds are vaxxed you're going to get the majority of deaths in the vaccinated, regardless of anything else.

If you want to make a meaningful conclusion you have to either look at chance of dying at each age range vaxxed vs unvaxxed. Or look at percentage vaxxed/unvaxxed and percentage dead vaxxed/unvaxxed at each age group.

[rcarlson]

1 minute ago, Bijan said:

As I said in my post what are the stats as to age distribution. You can't just lump everyone together.

You have to look at percentage vaxxed at each age group and percentage dead at each age group.

For example if  a large precentage of 90+ year olds are vaxxed you're going to get the majority of deaths in the vaccinated, regardless of anything else.

If you want to make a meaningful conclusion you have to either look at chance of dying at each age range vaxxed vs unvaxxed. Or look at percentage vaxxed/unvaxxed and percentage dead vaxxed/unvaxxed at each age group.

Don't see how that addresses my point.  

[Bijan]

Just now, rcarlson said:

Don't see how that addresses my point.  

Not to be obnoxious but what is your point?

The vaccine greatly reduces one's chance of being hospitalized or dying.

Most people who die of covid are old, they tend to be frail, their immune systems are weak. Even though the vaccine makes it more likely they'll survive covid than without, it's still much better to be an unvaccinated 30 year old than a quadruple vaxxed 90 year old.

[rcarlson]

Just now, Bijan said:

Not to be obnoxious but what is your point?

The vaccine greatly reduces one's chance of being hospitalized or dying.

 

I said just that. Shadow boxing.   

[Bijan]

1 minute ago, rcarlson said:

I said just that. Shadow boxing.   

My apologies. Misunderstood.

[Ej456]

Cigar smoking forum and we are worried about respiratory disease  

[Bijan]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:53 PM, rcarlson said:

It's clear that the vaccines are useful primarily for limiting the severity of breakthrough infections, not for limiting the spread of the disease. That puts vaccines squarely in the category of self-interest. If people think getting vaccinated is the best bet for their own health, as I do, great. But there is little or no argument for forcing them to get vaccinated for the sake of someone else’s well-being.

To address this original point. I don't know the data everywhere, but here in Ontario Canada we went from 4000 cases a day to about 300 a day, now back up to 500 a day. The decrease has happened while lock down measured have been rolled back but the vaccanation rate went up. Deaths were at around 20 a day then, now low single digits. Peak in deaths was earlier around 50 a day, before the seniors started getting vaccinated.

Anyways seems cases declined with the increase in vaccination.

As to forcing people, I'm opposed to that myself. But think incentives/disincentives we have here are still far from true coercion. Not be table to dine inside a restaurant or work out at a gym or attend a concert or sporting event are generally the limits that are imposed on the unvaccinated. Much more difficult to live without driving if one takes the seat belt analogy than to live without the above.

[Ken Gargett]

4 hours ago, El Presidente said:

...I am assuming your recovery post last weeks near death experience is going welll.....

i believe the french call it medicine. 

anyway, it makes me feel better. 

[Cairo]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

No shortage of people in this region who believe their version of "asian" ism is superior to all other cultures Same for islamic cultures, same for Aussies

I am shocked (in the US) when I encounter vocal in your face racism.    The last time I encountered it was a woman from India who went on a tirade about American blacks--complaining about a neighbor of hers.  I don't pretend to understand Indian culture, but it appeared she viewed them as being at the very bottom of their caste system.   Perhaps folks who know more could comment.

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Let me flip the scrip 

No shortage of people in this region who believe their version of "asian" ism is superior to all other cultures Same for islamic cultures, same for Aussies and not just the redneck aussies.  

Racism for the most part is central to the human DNA. I am as guilty as any.

Hells yeah! Chinese at the top of the list, baby!!!

[El Presidente]

15 minutes ago, Cairo said:

I am shocked (in the US) when I encounter vocal in your face racism.    The last time I encountered it was a woman from India who went on a tirade about American blacks--complaining about a neighbor of hers.  I don't pretend to understand Indian culture, but it appeared she viewed them as being at the very bottom of their caste system.   Perhaps folks who know more could comment.

No need. 

Ignorance is global. 

[NSXCIGAR]

3 hours ago, Bijan said:

Oh yes definitely, agreed. But I was just surprised at @NSXCIGAR, as an American not knowing anyone or knowing anyone "who knows anyone", who holds such beliefs! As you say it is very common to humans.

Believing a culture is superior has nothing to do with race whatsoever. Culture is belief and behavior. Race is genetic and immutable. People can change their beliefs and behavior--and culture. Race, not so much. I think culture is perfectly fair to criticize particularly when you have cultures practicing female genital mutilation and execution of gays. 

Am I to understand you personally know or know people who know people who truly believe the white race is superior to all others? How many? And I mean to all others--not just to blacks or Asians or indigenous, etc. If not, on what are you basing your statement that there are no shortage of such people?

I'll also add that those with such racist views typically do not mingle in company that would find those views abhorrent. They tend to associate with like-minded people and could care less what high society thinks. 

I have relatives who grew up in a time when even holding unquestionably racist views would have been far more socially acceptable and yet they have told me many times they never heard or saw such things among general society but did hear them strongly from the few who did feel that way. Being a member of the KKK wasn't something people hid from all the way up to the 1970s. The US had a highly regarded sitting Senator who had been a high-ranking KKK member for over 50 years and who didn't really renounce his past beliefs and behavior until his 40th year in the Senate around 2000. 

I know of no evidence that white supremacist beliefs are as prevalent in the west as you suggest they are. Beliefs like this are today generally relegated to rural backwaters or very, very small groups outside of those backwaters and in dark recesses of the internet. Even 100 years ago the vast majority of Americans never held anything close to such beliefs. 

 

6 hours ago, GolfT3 said:

but what is most fascinating to me about this situation is that vaccines have been required for various things for decades (public schools, university, travel, jobs, etc.) without massive or large scale public resistance.

Well, in the US, for public schools, yes. Jobs and universities, I'm not sure about. Travel, I'm not aware of any requirements for the US...? And the vaccines are for seriously debilitating illnesses in children like smallpox, polio, measles, mumps, tetanus and flu. And these vaccines had been around for 10+ years before being mandated.

Also, the issue in the US is whether the federal government can mandate them. The states have a much greater legal grounding to mandate based on the 1905 Jacobsen decision. 

[Bijan]

20 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I have relatives who grew up in a time when even holding unquestionably racist views would have been far more socially acceptable and yet they have told me many times they never heard or saw such things among general society but did hear them strongly from the few who did feel that way. Being a member of the KKK wasn't something people hid from all the way up to the 1970s. The US had a highly regarded sitting Senator who had been a high-ranking KKK member for over 50 years and who didn't really renounce his past beliefs and behavior until his 40th year in the Senate around 2000. 

I can agree with one thing here. Until the 1960s racism/segregation was legally enforced in the US. Until the 1970s it was well tolerated in society.

I am a member of a Fraternity that admitted none but Bona Fide white males until the early 1970s. A vocal minority would not allow the rule to be overturned (as that would require more than a simple majority). Discmination in admission of new members was ended by simply not handing the forms describing the race of new members to the committee responsible for vetting members. And eventually the rule was overturned as it was no longer effective.

20 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Am I to understand you personally know or know people who know people who truly believe the white race is superior to all others? How many? And I mean to all others--not just to blacks or Asians or indigenous, etc. If not, on what are you basing your statement that there are no shortage of such people?

All others really? Is it not enough that they should think they are better than blacks, Asians or the indigenous. How many more "races" are there? That's about all of them.

Not to get into US politics too much. But the US is such that Spanish speaking whites are commonly considered a separate race.

To believe that there are characteristics of a race is to be racist. To believe one "race" is superior to another is to be racist.

If the question is specifically how many card carrying KKK members do I know or have I met, that communicated this to me in no uncertain terms, I must say this has not happened.

[NSXCIGAR]

4 minutes ago, Bijan said:

All others really? Is it not enough that they should think they are better than blacks, Asians or the indigenous. How many more "races" are there? That's about all of them.

I never said racists, although that term is pretty broad these days. I had said specifically "white supremacists" defined by Merriam-Webster as:

the belief that the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races

[Bijan]

30 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I never said racists, although that term is pretty broad these days. I had said specifically "white supremacists" defined by Merriam-Webster as:

the belief that the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races

Yes if the question is how many people advocate for the legal/political institution of racism and racist policies by the state or even simply by the community I agree with you.

I started down this rabbit hole not because of a disagreement with the above. But because of your original statement:

"I'm not sure how many degrees of white supremacy there are. One either believes whites to be superior to other races or not. One thing I've learned about racists is that real racists don't hide or run from their racism. They're proud to be racist and aren't afraid to let anyone and everyone know it. "

I disagreed with those statements.