Finding the balance between the common good, personal rights and the ability to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice.


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"Now, more than ever, you have a responsibility to speak recklessly" - Dave Chappelle to fellow comedians. He's on the money again in my book. And that's a disgrace they sacked this dude over that car

I am not vaxxed, but not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in personal choice and responsibility. But I am anti-mandate. The whole mantra of "No jab-no more job" is a crock of shiatsu. My daughter who is 15 h

What's disturbing to me is the portrayal of people who object to mandates as being "anti-vax". Honestly, the number of people who are truly "anti-vax" is pretty insignificant. I don't know of any. I g

6 hours ago, clint said:

that is a clip from June of last year. not sure it is breaking news. 

 

6 hours ago, GolfT3 said:

This has been mentioned briefly before, but what is most fascinating to me about this situation is that vaccines have been required for various things for decades (public schools, university, travel, jobs, etc.) without massive or large scale public resistance. We aren’t really crossing the moral or proverbial rubicon for the first time here.

Whats different now? My guess is that it has nothing to do with the vaccine and it has little to do with a mandates (which everyone has adhered to in the past). It’s about where you get your information, who you choose to listen to, and how susceptible you are to those sources. Those are the things that have changed in the modern era.

absolutely!

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6 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

that is a clip from June of last year. not sure it is breaking news. 

So that makes it irrelevant?  Give me a break.

 

6 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

sorry, you now want young children to make an informed decision. children have parents or guardians. that is their job. spare me. 

Nice straw man.     I'm just afraid that all the misinformed parents are going to flock to have their kids vaccinated.   And it's not like there's not a massive propaganda campaign aimed at kids to get vaxxed.

 

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i look forward to rejoining the fun later. i've just cracked the new Bolly - B13 - and so priorities. 

 

6 hours ago, clint said:

So that makes it irrelevant?  Give me a break.

before the bolly, just to say, not at all. just that i suspect most are familiar with it. just as they will be familiar with other reports suggesting that the death toll is much higher. i'd put money on the fact that neither of us knows the correct position. 

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20 minutes ago, clint said:

I assume you are referring to the comments on how deaths are counted. Even if that had a significant impact on numbers, which seems very unlikely, it would still not account for the discrepancy between vaccinated and unvaccinated death rates, and has nothing to do at all with infection rates. 

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2 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i look forward to rejoining the fun later. i've just cracked the new Bolly - B13 - and so priorities. 

...I am assuming your recovery post last weeks near death experience is going welll.....:D

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I spent a decade in hospitality as a successful chef then moved into social work a few years ago. 

I haven't wasted that time, you should see the file human resources has on me.

There's a curious marriage between intolerance and free speech which I think has possibly gotten to its lowest in recent times. 

The world could do with more eastern philosophy and the art of war and less political correctness. 

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18 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

people objected because they did not want to be told that they had to wear one.

Slightly different here. Driving on a public roadway isn't a right--it's a privilege controlled by the state. No one is forced to drive--one can always walk, bike or take a bus. 

I would also say state control of any activity on public property is just as justified, e.g. helmets for bikers. 

What goes into one's body or medical procedures are a totally different story. 

18 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

but i would argue that there are, sadly, a great many more white supremacists around, of varying degrees

I'm not sure how many degrees of white supremacy there are. One either believes whites to be superior to other races or not. One thing I've learned about racists is that real racists don't hide or run from their racism. They're proud to be racist and aren't afraid to let anyone and everyone know it. 

How many of those people do you know? I don't know any, and I don't know anyone who knows any. Sure, I'm sure there's no shortage of white supremacy online but I'd be shocked if it were more than a few dozen people behind the largest online footprints and a few thousand goofballs who follow it, half of those mentally ill to some extent. And you'd better believe law enforcement agencies are all over these groups and sites agitating and encouraging these bozos to more radical behavior.

The comparison is that to be "anti-vax" is a very radical and unscientific position--just like white supremacy. No one seems to be able to produce these people when pressed. Sure, they might trot out a token wacko every now and again but one does not a movement make. 

I don't fear society being influenced by people into beastiality despite there being many of them. 

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4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'm not sure how many degrees of white supremacy there are. One either believes whites to be superior to other races or not.

If that is the definition, then absolutely no shortage of such people.

 

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

One thing I've learned about racists is that real racists don't hide or run from their racism. They're proud to be racist and aren't afraid to let anyone and everyone know it. 

One thing I've learned is that people don't want to be pariahs or outcasts, more than they want to be proud of their beliefs. Expressing straight racist views is not socially acceptable and so most people who hold such views do not express them directly. But do so indirectly.

The view that those people aren't real racists is to me entirely wrong. Your first definition was a sound one. But this second statement does not hold water to me.

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11 minutes ago, Bijan said:

If that is the definition, then absolutely no shortage of such people.

Let me flip the scrip ;)

No shortage of people in this region who believe their version of "asian" ism is superior to all other cultures Same for islamic cultures, same for Aussies and not just the redneck aussies.  

Racism for the most part is central to the human DNA. I am as guilty as any.

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1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

Let me flip the script ;)

Oh yes definitely, agreed. But I was just surprised at @NSXCIGAR, as an American not knowing anyone or knowing anyone "who knows anyone", who holds such beliefs! As you say it is very common to humans.

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3 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Here is information on infection rates presented by the Texas Department of Health earlier this month. It breaks down by age. It includes information through September. This is based on data for Texas, which should be more or less representative of the entire US. People 12-17 actually saw the biggest impact. The impact is pretty clear cut: 1574180_2021-11-10(2).png.19c17d6fd7bf8fc70980ee5d21948795.png

And here is the data on death rates by age group:

1992430065_2021-11-10(3).png.db218aa6f9b7852a8381a5c37a4068d6.png

Source: https://www.dshs.texas.gov/immunize/covid19/data/Cases-and-Deaths-by-Vaccination-Status-11082021.pdf

And yet:

Slide1-8-e1636439627161.png?resize=1080%2C550&ssl=1

111 out of 168 newly announced “covid deaths”–66%–were among the fully vaccinated. Likewise, 347 out of 883 hospital admissions for covid (or with covid)–39%–were of the fully vaccinated. There is nothing unique about Minnesota.

Confirmation bias is a bitch.  

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48 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Slightly different here. Driving on a public roadway isn't a right--it's a privilege controlled by the state. No one is forced to drive--one can always walk, bike or take a bus. 

I would also say state control of any activity on public property is just as justified, e.g. helmets for bikers.

Right, so no vaccine, no walking on public pavements/sidewalks, no driving on public roads, no taking public transportation.  No activity or presence on any public property or infrastructure.  No access to public services.

50 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

What goes into one's body or medical procedures are a totally different story. 

19 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

And how long have we all been ingesting flourine from the water supply? Including children.

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Just now, rcarlson said:

111 out of 168 newly announced “covid deaths”–66%–were among the fully vaccinated. Likewise, 347 out of 883 hospital admissions for covid (or with covid)–39%–were of the fully vaccinated. There is nothing unique about Minnesota.

Confirmation bias is a bitch.  

As I said in my post what are the stats as to age distribution. You can't just lump everyone together.

You have to look at percentage vaxxed at each age group and percentage dead at each age group.

For example if  a large precentage of 90+ year olds are vaxxed you're going to get the majority of deaths in the vaccinated, regardless of anything else.

If you want to make a meaningful conclusion you have to either look at chance of dying at each age range vaxxed vs unvaxxed. Or look at percentage vaxxed/unvaxxed and percentage dead vaxxed/unvaxxed at each age group.

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1 minute ago, Bijan said:

As I said in my post what are the stats as to age distribution. You can't just lump everyone together.

You have to look at percentage vaxxed at each age group and percentage dead at each age group.

For example if  a large precentage of 90+ year olds are vaxxed you're going to get the majority of deaths in the vaccinated, regardless of anything else.

If you want to make a meaningful conclusion you have to either look at chance of dying at each age range vaxxed vs unvaxxed. Or look at percentage vaxxed/unvaxxed and percentage dead vaxxed/unvaxxed at each age group.

Don't see how that addresses my point.  

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Just now, rcarlson said:

Don't see how that addresses my point.  

Not to be obnoxious but what is your point?

The vaccine greatly reduces one's chance of being hospitalized or dying.

Most people who die of covid are old, they tend to be frail, their immune systems are weak. Even though the vaccine makes it more likely they'll survive covid than without, it's still much better to be an unvaccinated 30 year old than a quadruple vaxxed 90 year old.

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On 11/9/2021 at 8:53 PM, rcarlson said:

It's clear that the vaccines are useful primarily for limiting the severity of breakthrough infections, not for limiting the spread of the disease. That puts vaccines squarely in the category of self-interest. If people think getting vaccinated is the best bet for their own health, as I do, great. But there is little or no argument for forcing them to get vaccinated for the sake of someone else’s well-being.

To address this original point. I don't know the data everywhere, but here in Ontario Canada we went from 4000 cases a day to about 300 a day, now back up to 500 a day. The decrease has happened while lock down measured have been rolled back but the vaccanation rate went up. Deaths were at around 20 a day then, now low single digits. Peak in deaths was earlier around 50 a day, before the seniors started getting vaccinated.

Anyways seems cases declined with the increase in vaccination.

As to forcing people, I'm opposed to that myself. But think incentives/disincentives we have here are still far from true coercion. Not be table to dine inside a restaurant or work out at a gym or attend a concert or sporting event are generally the limits that are imposed on the unvaccinated. Much more difficult to live without driving if one takes the seat belt analogy than to live without the above.

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2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

No shortage of people in this region who believe their version of "asian" ism is superior to all other cultures Same for islamic cultures, same for Aussies

I am shocked (in the US) when I encounter vocal in your face racism.    The last time I encountered it was a woman from India who went on a tirade about American blacks--complaining about a neighbor of hers.  I don't pretend to understand Indian culture, but it appeared she viewed them as being at the very bottom of their caste system.   Perhaps folks who know more could comment.

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