Finding the balance between the common good, personal rights and the ability to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice.


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Let me flip the scrip ;)

No shortage of people in this region who believe their version of "asian" ism is superior to all other cultures Same for islamic cultures, same for Aussies and not just the redneck aussies.  

Racism for the most part is central to the human DNA. I am as guilty as any.

Hells yeah! Chinese at the top of the list, baby!!! :P

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 230
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

"Now, more than ever, you have a responsibility to speak recklessly" - Dave Chappelle to fellow comedians. He's on the money again in my book. And that's a disgrace they sacked this dude over that car

I am not vaxxed, but not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in personal choice and responsibility. But I am anti-mandate. The whole mantra of "No jab-no more job" is a crock of shiatsu. My daughter who is 15 h

What's disturbing to me is the portrayal of people who object to mandates as being "anti-vax". Honestly, the number of people who are truly "anti-vax" is pretty insignificant. I don't know of any. I g

15 minutes ago, Cairo said:

I am shocked (in the US) when I encounter vocal in your face racism.    The last time I encountered it was a woman from India who went on a tirade about American blacks--complaining about a neighbor of hers.  I don't pretend to understand Indian culture, but it appeared she viewed them as being at the very bottom of their caste system.   Perhaps folks who know more could comment.

No need. 

Ignorance is global. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bijan said:

Oh yes definitely, agreed. But I was just surprised at @NSXCIGAR, as an American not knowing anyone or knowing anyone "who knows anyone", who holds such beliefs! As you say it is very common to humans.

Believing a culture is superior has nothing to do with race whatsoever. Culture is belief and behavior. Race is genetic and immutable. People can change their beliefs and behavior--and culture. Race, not so much. I think culture is perfectly fair to criticize particularly when you have cultures practicing female genital mutilation and execution of gays. 

Am I to understand you personally know or know people who know people who truly believe the white race is superior to all others? How many? And I mean to all others--not just to blacks or Asians or indigenous, etc. If not, on what are you basing your statement that there are no shortage of such people?

I'll also add that those with such racist views typically do not mingle in company that would find those views abhorrent. They tend to associate with like-minded people and could care less what high society thinks. 

I have relatives who grew up in a time when even holding unquestionably racist views would have been far more socially acceptable and yet they have told me many times they never heard or saw such things among general society but did hear them strongly from the few who did feel that way. Being a member of the KKK wasn't something people hid from all the way up to the 1970s. The US had a highly regarded sitting Senator who had been a high-ranking KKK member for over 50 years and who didn't really renounce his past beliefs and behavior until his 40th year in the Senate around 2000. 

I know of no evidence that white supremacist beliefs are as prevalent in the west as you suggest they are. Beliefs like this are today generally relegated to rural backwaters or very, very small groups outside of those backwaters and in dark recesses of the internet. Even 100 years ago the vast majority of Americans never held anything close to such beliefs. 

 

6 hours ago, GolfT3 said:

but what is most fascinating to me about this situation is that vaccines have been required for various things for decades (public schools, university, travel, jobs, etc.) without massive or large scale public resistance.

Well, in the US, for public schools, yes. Jobs and universities, I'm not sure about. Travel, I'm not aware of any requirements for the US...? And the vaccines are for seriously debilitating illnesses in children like smallpox, polio, measles, mumps, tetanus and flu. And these vaccines had been around for 10+ years before being mandated.

Also, the issue in the US is whether the federal government can mandate them. The states have a much greater legal grounding to mandate based on the 1905 Jacobsen decision. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I have relatives who grew up in a time when even holding unquestionably racist views would have been far more socially acceptable and yet they have told me many times they never heard or saw such things among general society but did hear them strongly from the few who did feel that way. Being a member of the KKK wasn't something people hid from all the way up to the 1970s. The US had a highly regarded sitting Senator who had been a high-ranking KKK member for over 50 years and who didn't really renounce his past beliefs and behavior until his 40th year in the Senate around 2000. 

I can agree with one thing here. Until the 1960s racism/segregation was legally enforced in the US. Until the 1970s it was well tolerated in society.

I am a member of a Fraternity that admitted none but Bona Fide white males until the early 1970s. A vocal minority would not allow the rule to be overturned (as that would require more than a simple majority). Discmination in admission of new members was ended by simply not handing the forms describing the race of new members to the committee responsible for vetting members. And eventually the rule was overturned as it was no longer effective.

20 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Am I to understand you personally know or know people who know people who truly believe the white race is superior to all others? How many? And I mean to all others--not just to blacks or Asians or indigenous, etc. If not, on what are you basing your statement that there are no shortage of such people?

All others really? Is it not enough that they should think they are better than blacks, Asians or the indigenous. How many more "races" are there? That's about all of them.

Not to get into US politics too much. But the US is such that Spanish speaking whites are commonly considered a separate race.

To believe that there are characteristics of a race is to be racist. To believe one "race" is superior to another is to be racist.

If the question is specifically how many card carrying KKK members do I know or have I met, that communicated this to me in no uncertain terms, I must say this has not happened.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Bijan said:

All others really? Is it not enough that they should think they are better than blacks, Asians or the indigenous. How many more "races" are there? That's about all of them.

I never said racists, although that term is pretty broad these days. I had said specifically "white supremacists" defined by Merriam-Webster as:

the belief that the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I never said racists, although that term is pretty broad these days. I had said specifically "white supremacists" defined by Merriam-Webster as:

the belief that the white race is inherently superior to other races and that white people should have control over people of other races

Yes if the question is how many people advocate for the legal/political institution of racism and racist policies by the state or even simply by the community I agree with you.

I started down this rabbit hole not because of a disagreement with the above. But because of your original statement:

"I'm not sure how many degrees of white supremacy there are. One either believes whites to be superior to other races or not. One thing I've learned about racists is that real racists don't hide or run from their racism. They're proud to be racist and aren't afraid to let anyone and everyone know it. "

I disagreed with those statements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

 

Well, in the US, for public schools, yes. Jobs and universities, I'm not sure about. Travel, I'm not aware of any requirements for the US...? And the vaccines are for seriously debilitating illnesses in children like smallpox, polio, measles, mumps, tetanus and flu. And these vaccines had been around for 10+ years before being mandated.

Also, the issue in the US is whether the federal government can mandate them. The states have a much greater legal grounding to mandate based on the 1905 Jacobsen decision. 

Universities - yes, jobs - yes if you’re in healthcare, military, public service, teacher etc, travel - I believe it’s dependent on where you’re coming from but if you want a visa there are about 10 you need.

And I understand and agree with your comments about states authority vs feds, but my point is more about public reaction and outrage now where there was none in the past. The idea that parents today are more worried about Smallpox, which has been essentially eradicated for 50+ years, than Covid, which has killed hundreds of thousands in the last 18-24 months, makes my point more acute. How seriously the average person takes Covid is a function of who they listen to and where they get their news.

I’m betting if Joe Rogan were around 60 years ago a lot more if us would have Polio today…

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

right, first, i am staggered that you claim not to have realised that many disagreed with your first point. you have been involved in numerous debates on this forum alone and that has been raised many times. hard to imagine you've missed it. 

"the majority of hospitalizations and deaths belong to the vaccinated". it took barely any time to check this and the latest figures - plenty of other info and while it does vary, it is all pretty much along the same lines - suggest that the deaths between non-vax'd and vax'd are 16 to 1. so yes i choose to disagree. not sure what chocolate cows have to do with it but i doubt they'd believe you either. 

and yet again we have someone throwing up the claim of ignoring the medical risks to a small number. this has been covered endlessly. indeed, as i saw somewhere recently and it does seem appropriate, 'add nausea'. but i suppose if nothing else left, rehash the old fables. 

I've also been involved in enough debates around here to see that sometimes people don't read what was written very carefully before reacting.  This is one of those instances.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Bijan said:

Not to get into US politics too much. But the US is such that Spanish speaking whites are commonly considered a separate race.

Not by them.  They generally consider themselves white.  Especially when in their native country.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, rcarlson said:

111 out of 168 newly announced “covid deaths”–66%–were among the fully vaccinated. Likewise, 347 out of 883 hospital admissions for covid (or with covid)–39%–were of the fully vaccinated. There is nothing unique about Minnesota.

Confirmation bias is a bitch.  

Speak for yourself. 

That is an incredibly small and statistically insignificant sample size, especially compared to the statewide results over nearly a year in the results I posted. There isn’t a comparison.

Nor does your post account for the results I posted - there is no alternative explanation for the enormous variation. Do you have one? Even if, for sake of argument, vaccination accounted for only 10% of the difference that would still mean you’re four times more likely to die if you’re unvaccinated!

So, again, speak for yourself. For every scrap of selective data you can find I can post one that’s far more compelling. Just give up - the vaccines work. There is no legitimate scientific disagreement over this. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BigGuns said:

To address (what I believe is) the original topic - it is absurd and ridiculous that this cartoonist was fired. I firmly and wholeheartedly believe in freedom of speech and expression. If I disagree, get offended, or agree and am moved by it, that’s all on me, not for anyone else to decide. Same goes with comedy - anyone see the new Chapelle special and the outrage it has spawned?  You don’t like it?  Don’t watch it, don’t listen to it, furrow your brow and move on.  Ricky Gervais has addressed and nailed this concept many times.

What is the harm in publishing this cartoon?  Look what it did here - spawned decent convo about vaccinations/COVID and even somehow manifested some good old race talk. I find that fascinating and completely welcome. Imagine the comments section the newspaper would have had. Sadly, it is all left to imagination. 

Indeed. I find that cartoon both provocative and humorous. It works on a number of levels. When you engage with the one objectionable facet of it that immediately occurred to me (comparing the mandate protestors to the tortured political prisoners following Tianenemans Square, which is supremely hyperbolic in my mind), the cartoon counterpunches with a dual combo of 1) some mandate protestors do, indeed, see themselves that way and 2) the actual threat of violence (whether physical, economic, or social) is always present for those who do not comply with a governmental mandate. The government holds a monopoly on sanctioned violence of all types. 

Elegant social commentary, in my opinion. And I've enjoyed reading this thread a great deal. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Speak for yourself. 

That is an incredibly small and statistically insignificant sample size, especially compared to the statewide results over nearly a year in the results I posted. There isn’t a comparison.

Nor does your post account for the results I posted - there is no alternative explanation for the enormous variation. Do you have one? Even if, for sake of argument, vaccination accounted for only 10% of the difference that would still mean you’re four times more likely to die if you’re unvaccinated!

So, again, speak for yourself. For every scrap of selective data you can find I can post one that’s far more compelling. Just give up - the vaccines work. There is no legitimate scientific disagreement over this. 

I see you didn't read my comments carefully either.  Nowhere did I say that you're NOT more likely to die from covid if unvaccinated.  I said the exact opposite. 

And I was pointing to transmission rates and hospitalization numbers, not ratios and not efficacy.  Just grabbed a state about as far away from TX to illustrate the point that there are spikes and declines through the natural progression of the virus, which there are.  Geez.  If there were no breakthrough cases and sickness from the vaccinated, there'd be no need for boosters. 

The title of this post may be the most ironic ever conceived.       

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

And I was pointing to transmission rates and hospitalization numbers, not ratios and not efficacy.  Just grabbed a state about as far away from TX to illustrate the point that there are spikes and declines through the natural progression of the virus, which there are.  Geez.  If there were no breakthrough cases and sickness from the vaccinated, there'd be no need for boosters. 

I understand your point now. But the data you gave as an example shows how much death and or hospitalization there is among the vaccinated. What we need to consider your argument (if it is about transmission vs vaccination) are trends in the number of cases vs vaccination.

So 168 deaths and 883 hospital admissions. But how many in a similar period when vaccination rates were low?

Edit: ideally case numbers rather than deaths or hospitalizations.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

I see you didn't read my comments carefully either.  Nowhere did I say that you're NOT more likely to die from covid if unvaccinated.  I said the exact opposite. 

And I was pointing to transmission rates and hospitalization numbers, not ratios and not efficacy.  Just grabbed a state about as far away from TX to illustrate the point that there are spikes and declines through the natural progression of the virus, which there are.  Geez.  If there were no breakthrough cases and sickness from the vaccinated, there'd be no need for boosters. 

The title of this post may be the most ironic ever conceived.       

You didn’t provide much context for those statistic, so I interpreted your intention in posting them. I’m still not sure what point you were trying to make about confirmation bias but I didn’t mean anything personal by trying to impeach your post. What point are you trying to make?

Let me add that, regarding the original cartoon, I think it’s clever and respectfully subversive. I certainly don’t think anyone should be losing their job over it, even though I understand the frustration public health officials feel. The irony is that if people just wisened up and got vaccinated all this public pressure wouldn’t be necessary. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Bijan said:

I understand your point now. But the data you gave as an example shows how much death and or hospitalization there is among the vaccinated. What we need to consider your argument (if it is about transmission vs vaccination) are trends in the number of cases vs vaccination.

So 168 deaths and 883 hospital admissions. But how many in a similar period when vaccination rates were low?

Edit: ideally case numbers rather than deaths or hospitalizations.

Ken's retort to my original comment was about hospitalizations, and it was at this point I stepped through the looking glass.  

As inoffensively as I know how to put it, which is hard since I do love some good snark, "finding the balance between the common good and personal right. . . " is the topic, and I "freely expressed an opinion without hate or malice."  It was immediately and reflexively attacked based on things I never said as though I'm too dumb, brainwashed, or ignorant to recognize the seriousness of the virus.  This type of engagement really needs to stop.   

If hospitalization rates spike and recede, as they have in different places at different times, the case for forced vaccination for the sake of someone else's well-being on that basis is weak -- a matter of timing rather than absolutes, IMO.  Do with it what you will.              

    

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

It was immediately and reflexively attacked based on things I never said as though I'm too dumb, brainwashed, or ignorant to recognize the seriousness of the virus. 

I don’t think it’s fair to characterize my response as an attack, at least not a personal one. I apparently misunderstood why you were responding to my original post, although I still don’t see how your response relates to forced vaccination unless you were trying to imply they aren’t effective enough. You posted a small sample of data in response to my post accusing me of confirmation bias without further context. I think my interpretation was understandable, but if you were trying to make another point that’s understandable too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, rcarlson said:

If hospitalization rates spike and recede, as they have in different places at different times, the case for forced vaccination for the sake of someone else's well-being on that basis is weak -- a matter of timing rather than absolutes, IMO.  Do with it what you will.              

The basis for that would be the amount of hospitalizations with or without vaccinations or with more or less vaccinations.

That hospitalizations should vary over time doesn't necessarily matter as much, as the hospitalizations varied over time with no vaccine too.

As I said here we were at 4000 cases a day and 25 deaths a day, before mass vaccination, then that went down to 300 a day with vaccination, back up to 500 a day now (and 2-5 deaths).

I am fairly convinced that the number of cases in any scenario is lower the higher the vaccination rate. And would need some evidence that that is not the case.

Edit: The argument whether people should be encouraged to get vaccinated, or face any disencentives if not vaccinated is related, but depends on tradeoffs that need to be considered. Obviously if the number of cases does not decrease with vaccinations then there is no case for that at all. If there is it depends on the decrease that vaccination brings, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No need to specify whom. 

Cut the drama queen crap and take it to PM.

The rest of the forum doesn't need to watch handbags at 3 paces. 

 

 

"ooooh you didn't read that"

"ooooh you misinterpreted"

"ooooh you should have"

Pleeeease. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

image.png.1767790429dda0ec605e3ef769c2c40b.png
 

What’s the old saying about good things coming to those that wait?

Jokes aside, to the OP, seems to me like the powers to be are attempting to silence a dissenting opinion. Shame that a revered cartoonist and political commentator had to fall in the wake of controlling the narrative. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Bijan said:

The basis for that would be the amount of hospitalizations with or without vaccinations or with more or less vaccinations.

That hospitalizations should vary over time doesn't necessarily matter as much, as the hospitalizations varied over time with no vaccine too.

Yup.  And whether you accept the dubious premise that number of unvaxxed are justification enough to impose mandates on all. And I'd wager that with 80% vaxxed, the number of breakthrough cases resulting in hospitalizations from transmission from vaxxed and unvaxxed is not too dissimilar proportionally.  I don't think we really can know that with any degree of certainty, but we do know that the more unvaxxed infections the greater the number with natural immunity in the population.       

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, GolfT3 said:

I’m betting if Joe Rogan were around 60 years ago a lot more if us would have Polio today…

Is Joe Rogan against all vaccines? I'm honestly not aware of his position. But Polio and Covid are not even close to comparable. Polio had a 1% mortality rate in children with 5% being hospitalized with severe illness. Smallpox had a 30% mortality rate. COVID has a 0.00005% mortality rate in children. And at the time, there were few or no therapeutics available for any of those as there are for Covid. 

Whether or not I get a vaccine for anything is a pure cost-benefit analysis. If travel and sense of smell & taste weren't important to me I can tell you that I would absolutely not have gotten the Covid vaccine. Why would I when I am relatively young, healthy and have access to several effective therapeutics if necessary? 

Based on the data a healthy 12 year old or younger is more likely to be struck by lightning than get seriously ill from this. Why on earth would you give a child this vaccine that has been out for 10 months? 

1 in 100 mortality, yes, my kid's getting the vaccine. 1 out of 500,000, absolutely not. 

 

On 11/11/2021 at 7:14 PM, Bijan said:

"I'm not sure how many degrees of white supremacy there are. One either believes whites to be superior to other races or not. One thing I've learned about racists is that real racists don't hide or run from their racism. They're proud to be racist and aren't afraid to let anyone and everyone know it. "

I disagreed with those statements.

I overlapped racism with white supremacy for one sentence there inadvertently. I was only referring to white supremacy or that extreme degree of racism. White supremacists don't hide their views, that I stand behind. Someone who tells a racist joke at a party after a few drinks may certainly want to conceal that but that level of "racism" isn't in the same galaxy as white supremacy. Racism may have degrees I suppose but white supremacism doesn't. You're either in the club or out of the club. 

To relate back to my original statement, which I stand by, that the media is telling us anti-vaxers are everywhere and to reject a mandate is to be an anti-vaxer, and I am asking how many true anti-vaxers are really out there, and comparing that likely low number to the number of white supremacists the media strongly insinuates are running around. Seems like a very similar phantom the media has created. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

To relate back to my original statement, which I stand by, that the media is telling us anti-vaxers are everywhere and to reject a mandate is to be an anti-vaxer, and I am asking how many true anti-vaxers are really out there, and comparing that likely low number to the number of white supremacists the media strongly insinuates are running around. Seems like a very similar phantom the media has created. 

What does it mean to be anti-vaxx? Does it mean to be opposed to vaccines in general. If so these people exist. In larger numbers than your clarified definition of white supremacists as openly admitting KKK members or that level of overt and open racism.

There is a sizeable proportion of the population that are not getting their children vaccinated for diseases like measles that are making a resurgence. These people are not imaginary and the proof are the outbreaks of measles that are occurring.

Measles heard immunity being around 95% these people (or their children rather) must be 5% or more of certain communities.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.