Finding the balance between the common good, personal rights and the ability to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice.


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"Now, more than ever, you have a responsibility to speak recklessly" - Dave Chappelle to fellow comedians. He's on the money again in my book. And that's a disgrace they sacked this dude over that car

I am not vaxxed, but not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in personal choice and responsibility. But I am anti-mandate. The whole mantra of "No jab-no more job" is a crock of shiatsu. My daughter who is 15 h

What's disturbing to me is the portrayal of people who object to mandates as being "anti-vax". Honestly, the number of people who are truly "anti-vax" is pretty insignificant. I don't know of any. I g

10 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

Your definition of being anti-vaxx is also too narrow - it includes vaccine hesitancy

What's wrong with vaccine hesitancy? How is that even defined? Technically anyone who hasn't gotten it yet is hesitant and again, there are many logical reasons why someone would choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children. 

Ostensibly a mandate is focused primarily on those who are vaccine hesitant as there are many more of those people than true "anti-vaxers" out there. 

Your argument is that vaccine hesitant people are driving vaccine hesitancy? Where's the data for that? Maybe people are looking at the best data and making their own decisions? Again, there's a better scientific case to be made for a healthy 30 year old not to get the vaccine than to get it. What about those who've had COVID? Why on earth would anyone who had COVID already get a vaccine? Are they "vaccine hesitant" as well? 

As far as the "vaccines-cause-autism-in-children" crowd, I would also not necessarily label them as anti-vax. COVID vaccination for healthy children is simply is flat-out unsupported by any scientific evidence or data and perhaps one could accept that looking at the best data they could get on board with a COVID vaccine for an overweight diabetic 75 year old. 

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36 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

What's wrong with vaccine hesitancy? How is that even defined? Technically anyone who hasn't gotten it yet is hesitant and again, there are many logical reasons why someone would choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children. 

I think this goes back to the 3 types of people I encountered and their reasons for not getting vaccinated.

There are those who are biased against vaccines regardless of actual benefits and disadvantages. This includes the vaccines cause autism crowd. These are like the many people who eat gluten free but have no sensitivity or allergy to wheat, except their choice has consequences beyond merely themselves in this case.

There are those biased against the COVID vaccine specifically as a conspiracy or plot. This includes but is in no way limited to the 5g chips and vaccinated people are shedding harmful vaccine particles crowd.

Then there are those who just don't want to get vaccinated based on cost benefit. Which is where you think the vast majority of unvaccinated people lie.

The purpose of mandates or incentives/disencentives is to get people to get vaccinated for the benefit of others or society as a whole (decreasing transmission and cases in society as a whole through a larger percentage of the population being immune thanks to vaccination) even though it may not benefit them directly.

Those who view this only in terms of costs and benefits are more likely to be swayed than the other two groups.

Edit: and of course there's the case of the first two groups where people would need incentives/coercion to get vaccinated even when it is clearly a net benefit to them. I simply don't think that applies because we don't require other vaccines in adults that have only individual benefit like shingles, tetanus, etc.

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1 hour ago, Bijan said:

There are those biased against the COVID vaccine specifically as a conspiracy or plot. This includes but is in no way limited to the 5g chips and vaccinated people are shedding harmful vaccine particles crowd.

Yes, those are people I would classify as "anti-vax". As that position isn't grounded in science, data or cost-benefit it's clearly an extreme position that I've not heard anyone that would be in a position to influence others espouse, nor would a reasonable person be overly swayed by the argument if encountered. Have fears of 5G been increasing because of a relative handful of vocal crackpots? Not that I'm aware. 

1 hour ago, Bijan said:

The purpose of mandates or incentives/disencentives is to get people to get vaccinated for the benefit of others or society as a whole (decreasing transmission and cases in society as a whole through a larger percentage of the population being immune thanks to vaccination) even though it may not benefit them directly.

That's technically correct, but in this case I think we're specifically discussing the COVID vaccines. We can speculate about what people's positions may be in regards to a different illness and vaccine but in this case the data clearly shows that getting vaccinated doesn't prevent transmission, so it's very reasonable to question the basis for mandating the vaccine.

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2 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

That's technically correct, but in this case I think we're specifically discussing the COVID vaccines. We can speculate about what people's positions may be in regards to a different illness and vaccine but in this case the data clearly shows that getting vaccinated doesn't prevent transmission, so it's very reasonable to question the basis for mandating the vaccine.

Smallpox vaccine didn't prevent transmission or totally elminate the risk of getting sick from smallpox. It was 95% effective. But it eradicated the disease. Not sure the covid vaccine rises to that level, but I am pretty sure it decreases transmission. and it might be pretty close to that level.

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1 minute ago, Bijan said:

Smallpox vaccine didn't prevent transmission or totally elminate the risk of getting sick from smallpox. It was 95% effective. But it eradicated the disease. Not sure the covid vaccine rises to that level, but I am pretty sure it decreases transmission. and it might be pretty close to that level.

True, but with a 30% fatality rate few needed to be told to get that vaccine. The majority of people who are choosing not to get the COVID vaccine are obviously assuming they'll get it (if they haven't already had it) and are ok with that. I don't think anyone would be ok with getting smallpox. 

 

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33 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

True, but with a 30% fatality rate few needed to be told to get that vaccine. The majority of people who are choosing not to get the COVID vaccine are obviously assuming they'll get it (if they haven't already had it) and are ok with that. I don't think anyone would be ok with getting smallpox. 

 

Yes that is definitely true. I'm not entirely sure covid is the make or break society issue that it is made out to be.

But if there is an argument to be made for mandates for the covid vaccines it is the desire or need to reduce the number of cases by reducing infections and thus transmissions.

I'm not sure how effective the measles vaccine is but that had a much lower mortality though still higher than covid, and highly infectious, maybe a better example, though of course not totally eradicated but nearly absent in most parts of the world (save for flare ups due to anti-vax).

I gave smallpox as an example of how a vaccine can eradicate a diseases even though it is not 100% effective.

Edit: Seems measles vaccine is 97% effective after two doses:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7847598/

Edit 2: Also I believe chickenpox vaccine might be mandated for kids. Even though I think the US had about 50 adult deaths and 50 child deaths per year before vaccinaiton.

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2 hours ago, Bijan said:

But if there is an argument to be made for mandates for the covid vaccines it is the desire or need to reduce the number of cases by reducing infections and thus transmissions.

I don't believe the Covid vaccine reduces infection or transmission. It only reduces symptoms. 

The only aspect in which a COVID vaccine mandate could be effective is to force a high-risk individual who for some reason has chosen not to get the vaccine to get one, thus protecting themselves. 

Again, I think comparing COVID and the COVID vaccine to any other virus or vaccine throughout history is a mistake. This particular virus--and the vaccines--are different from other historical events and should be considered as such. Comparing it to smallpox and Polio is apples and oranges. 

I wanted to point that out because at least for me I am considering this topic of mandates as it relates only to COVID and not anything else. Some may be speaking more generally--I am not. 

Also, not sure about chickenpox vaccines but I went to public schools and got chickenpox when I was about 10 or 11. That was in the 80s so not sure if it's now mandated or if I was vaccinated and got it anyway and my symptoms were just reduced.

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21 hours ago, clint said:

Are you equating donated organs to cells taken from a murdered baby?

A fetus and a baby are different things.

Calling abortion murder is a touch dramatic, I've never been in the unfortunate position of requiring one, but I imagine it's not easy for those that do. It all comes down to personal choice again though doesn't it?

21 hours ago, Bijan said:

I think the idea is one does not know the cause/source of the death which made the organs available.

If one holds that the the choice to donate the organs makes it moral, then what does one say about the case of organs from a suicide (medically assisted or otherwise), where the person donating the organs is the one potentially murdering or asking to be murdered. And how does that compare to the case of the aborted fetus, where the parents aborts the fetus and donates the cells. And the myriad combination thereof.

And many organs will come from children who can no more consent or choose to donate than can fetuses. It all gets very complicated.

I could do with this sort of translatory assistance in my day to day life if you're available?

Well put.

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On 11/10/2021 at 10:50 AM, El Presidente said:

I am very comfortable with vaccinations.

 I am quite  comfortable with people deciding not to get vaccinated as long as they pay the full cost  of the consequences ($ & health) .  I have two mates of my inner circle who are antivaxxers. Love them both and we have an agreement. They don't bitch to me if shit goes south and I won't bitch to them if I find myself growing a third testical on my forehead.

However, I get really uncomfortable when I see cartoonists being sacked for challenging the status quo. 

Leunig is a talented but very controversial cartoonist.  I like his attitude;

"But my job is to challenge the status quo, and that has always been the job of the cartoonist.”

Hard to argue?

Full Article here

 

I loved the cartoon. 

A cartoon by Michael Leunig comparing resistance to mandatory vaccination to the fight for democracy in Tiananmen Square. Source: Instagram/leunigstudio

 

This is not a country speciic thread so don't make it one. 

 

This is a thread about how comfortable we are in the balance between the common good, personal rights and the abiltiy to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice. 

 

I am still finding my way on this topic and welcome an intelligent discussion devoid of "sides".  If you cannot do that, don't participate. ;)

Play the ball not the man.  

 

 

As you know, In Australia all taxpayers  pay 2% of their annual income as Medicare levy which pays for our ‘free hospital care’. We should never feel unvaccinated people with Covid should pay any more than vaccinated people  for health care. Just like we don’t discriminated against substance or drug abusers,  smokers or alcoholics  ( also not doing the right thing) and obtaining hospital care.

Officially,  vaccination in Australia is not mandatory but we are just so keen.. We’re heading for 90% fully vaxed, one of the highest rates in the world!

By the way, I ‘choose’ to be fully vaxed, like most fellow Aussies, (Otherwise I’m not allowed to go to work..) 

Whoever sacked Leunig for that brilliant cartoon, telling it as it is, should be sacked imo

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It's no judgement on anyone, but parts of this discussion I find hugely depressing. 

The paranoia and mistrust of state may be valid in certain countries and to varying degrees. 

The overwhelming scary factor for me, is that the overarching comment from many leading virologists (in the UK anyway). Is that Covid is nothing compared to what possible novel-viruses may be just around the corner.   With that in mind and the sheer number of anti-vax, or vax hesitant people we have in the world.......we will be absolutely ruined should a serious novel-virus hit us in the future.         I know what they will say....."ah well if it's a serious one, then that will be a changeable factor on my judgement call, and my actions will shift and change in accordance to the situation".

The reality is all of these criticisms/judgements on vaccines require time to fester and evolve, with stats and results.    There could and probably will be a virus as some point in the future, that may not afford us that time to stop and think, It will be a simple case of act or die.        I'm sure many will say, "well if I die then so be it, that my choice".  Thats all well good,  but as ever they are likely to take quite a few people with them that don't share their judgement call...............and thats the problem. 

This era or 'army of one' and an almost obsessive desire to curate and orchestrate your own families life as being separate/grafted away entity from wider society, I believe can sometimes be toxic and self defeating.   Collective action and compliance is sometimes a good thing. not always.......but sometimes. 

I wonder how some on this forum feel about the AIDS epidemic and condom use.  Is it valid for those that are at risk (and you could obviously argue everybody is)  to say  "yeah......condoms are not for me......i'm just not convinced they work"

Above everything, I'm just really saddened that people increasingly seem to have little regard in a sense of community, that stretches beyond their direct family. It feels increasingly like lots of people see others (outside of their bubble) as a threat or drain on their resources, rather than an opportunity to meet someone new.....or make a new friend.        Life is feeling more and more like 'The Road'

Screenshot 2021-11-14 at 12.11.06.jpg

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I think we'd all do well to zoom out for a bit, have a good look around to see how societies across the world (The West in particular) are dividing and baring their teeth at one another, marching under a variety of flags, this vaccine being just one of them. I think we'd do well to try and be a little less sideways reactionary and be a little more questioning, vertically. There is much to give grave pause.

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11 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I don't believe the Covid vaccine reduces infection or transmission. It only reduces symptoms. 

Cases here went from 4000 a day down to 300 back to 600 now as vaccination rate went from 10% to 90% and measures were generally eased though at first measures were tightened. I think data elsewhere also shows number of people testing positive went down as vaccination went up.

Unless it reduces symptoms to the point that there are none then it must be reducing infections.

 

11 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Also, not sure about chickenpox vaccines but I went to public schools and got chickenpox when I was about 10 or 11. That was in the 80s so not sure if it's now mandated or if I was vaccinated and got it anyway and my symptoms were just reduced.

I am the same. The vaccine didn't exist yet.

First commercially available 1984 not widely used until even later.

Edit: also that vaccine is 70-90% effective at preventing infection and 95% effective at preventing severe disease.

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14 hours ago, Bijan said:

I think the idea is one does not know the cause/source of the death which made the organs available.

If one holds that the the choice to donate the organs makes it moral, then what does one say about the case of organs from a suicide (medically assisted or otherwise), where the person donating the organs is the one potentially murdering or asking to be murdered. And how does that compare to the case of the aborted fetus, where the parents aborts the fetus and donates the cells. And the myriad combination thereof.

And many organs will come from children who can no more consent or choose to donate than can fetuses. It all gets very complicated.

But one does know, at least Christians do, that abortion is the murder of an innocent baby and it's something they are steadfastly against.  Most Christians  believe that medically assisted suicide is also an immoral act but in this case there is at least consent involved,  whereas none exists in an abortion. Still doesn't make it right in a Christian's eyes.

When you say  "many organs will come from children who can no more consent or choose to donate than can fetuses", that the children in question here are murder victims or simply children that met with an untimely death?

The abortion debate as you know has been the most contentious of all social debates and I'd be a fool to think it could be settled here.  I feel for parents that make the choice to murder their baby because I know they will be tortured with the decision for the rest of their lives.  That's why it is such a grave sin.

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1 minute ago, clint said:

But one does know, at least Christians do, that abortion is the murder of an innocent baby and it's something they are steadfastly against.  Most Christians  believe that medically assisted suicide is also an immoral act but in this case there is at least consent involved,  whereas none exists in an abortion. Still doesn't make it right in a Christian's eyes.

When you say  "many organs will come from children who can no more consent or choose to donate than can fetuses", that the children in question here are murder victims or simply children that met with an untimely death?

The abortion debate as you know has been the most contentious of all social debates and I'd be a fool to think it could be settled here.  I feel for parents that make the choice to murder their baby because I know they will be tortured with the decision for the rest of their lives.  That's why it is such a grave sin.

How many unwanted babies have you adopted so far?

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1 minute ago, clint said:

But one does know, at least Christians do, that abortion is the murder of an innocent baby and it's something they are steadfastly against.

Not all Christians feel this way.

2 minutes ago, clint said:

When you say  "many organs will come from children who can no more consent or choose to donate than can fetuses", that the children in question here are murder victims or simply children that met with an untimely death?

Yes, let us say they are murder victims what then? Would such a Christian enquire and refuse the organs? Let's say the child is murdered by their parents. Again what then?

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10 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Again, there's a better scientific case to be made for a healthy 30 year old not to get the vaccine than to get it.

This is simply untrue. As a healthy 36 year old I spoke with three different physicians (one my own, two acquaintances) and all three said unequivocally that there is no reason to delay vaccination and everything to lose. I've read every scientific study I can find of the mRNA vaccines and they all say the same thing. I know people my age who are still suffering from long COVID and people my age are dying - there is no good reason, let alone a better reason, to not get vaccinated. 

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3 hours ago, cnov said:

A fetus and a baby are different things.

Calling abortion murder is a touch dramatic, I've never been in the unfortunate position of requiring one, but I imagine it's not easy for those that do. It all comes down to personal choice again though doesn't it?

 

If you think so.  It's a Christian's view that a person becomes a human at the moment of conception. That will never change.

It amazes me the mental gymnastics involved by the "pro choice" crowd to justify the killing of an innocent child.

 

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But one does know, at least Christians do, that abortion is the murder of an innocent baby and it's something they are steadfastly against.  Most Christians  believe that medically assisted suicide is also an immoral act but in this case there is at least consent involved,  whereas none exists in an abortion. Still doesn't make it right in a Christian's eyes.
When you say  "many organs will come from children who can no more consent or choose to donate than can fetuses", that the children in question here are murder victims or simply children that met with an untimely death?
The abortion debate as you know has been the most contentious of all social debates and I'd be a fool to think it could be settled here.  I feel for parents that make the choice to murder their baby because I know they will be tortured with the decision for the rest of their lives.  That's why it is such a grave sin.
Given that no aborted foetus' were required in the making of these vaccines, is this argument really relevant? The cells exist and are lab grown and have been for 80 years, creating vaccines does not "murder babies", it's a strawman.
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1 minute ago, clint said:

If you think so.  It's a Christian's view that a person becomes a human at the moment of conception. That will never change.

It amazes me the mental gymnastics involved by the "pro choice" crowd to justify the killing of an innocent child.

It is no gymnastics on my part.

To me as a father of a child myself, it is my belief that a baby let alone a fetus doesn't fully became a human being until well after birth. My son was more or less a potato at birth. Now at 2 he is a full human being. This is beyond the position taken by most who are pro choice of course. And probably objectionable to most people.

But now go back to the first trimester and this position is much less objectionable to people in general and this is how the pro choice crowd probably feel in general.

 

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9 minutes ago, Bijan said:

Not all Christians feel this way.

Yes, let us say they are murder victims what then? Would such a Christian enquire and refuse the organs? Let's say the child is murdered by their parents. Again what then?

I can't speak for every individual Christian as to what they would do in any given circumstance.  No one is perfect, especially no Christian.  Their goal is to live in a Christ-like fashion and to repent for all the ways in which they don't live up to that standard. "In a nutshell".

Are Christians being forced to accept organ donations?

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6 hours ago, Bijan said:

It is no gymnastics on my part.

To me as a father of a child myself, it is my belief that a baby let alone a fetus doesn't fully became a human being until well after birth. My son was more or less a potato at birth. Now at 2 he is a full human being. This is beyond the position taken by most who are pro choice of course. And probably objectionable to most people.

But now go back to the first trimester and this position is much less objectionable to people in general and this is how the pro choice crowd probably feel in general.

 

Wow.   Wouldn't know where to start with this one.  

 

6 hours ago, potpest said:
6 hours ago, clint said:
But one does know, at least Christians do, that abortion is the murder of an innocent baby and it's something they are steadfastly against.  Most Christians  believe that medically assisted suicide is also an immoral act but in this case there is at least consent involved,  whereas none exists in an abortion. Still doesn't make it right in a Christian's eyes.
When you say  "many organs will come from children who can no more consent or choose to donate than can fetuses", that the children in question here are murder victims or simply children that met with an untimely death?
The abortion debate as you know has been the most contentious of all social debates and I'd be a fool to think it could be settled here.  I feel for parents that make the choice to murder their baby because I know they will be tortured with the decision for the rest of their lives.  That's why it is such a grave sin.

Given that no aborted foetus' were required in the making of these vaccines, is this argument really relevant? The cells exist and are lab grown and have been for 80 years, creating vaccines does not "murder babies", it's a strawman.

I didn't make the argument.   I was attempting to explain why a Christian wouldn't want a vaccine with fetal tissue in it.

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