Finding the balance between the common good, personal rights and the ability to freely express an opinion that is devoid of hate and malice.


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14 hours ago, MrBirdman said:

This is simply untrue. As a healthy 36 year old I spoke with three different physicians (one my own, two acquaintances) and all three said unequivocally that there is no reason to delay vaccination and everything to lose. I've read every scientific study I can find of the mRNA vaccines and they all say the same thing. I know people my age who are still suffering from long COVID and people my age are dying - there is no good reason, let alone a better reason, to not get vaccinated. 

I am in no way suggesting you not follow your doctor's advice. They are obviously more familiar with your health status.

I am looking at the raw statistics. In the US there have been about 4.400 deaths of those 29 and younger. The estimates are that 89% of those deaths involve underlying conditions. So about 484 otherwise healthy people in the US under 30 have died from COVID. There have been well over 2,000 reported cases of serious vaccine complications. That means a healthy person under 30 is about as likely to get a vaccine complication as they are to die of COVID. 

Once you get over 30 and/or are in less than optimal health in any regard, that changes everything. Then it's a clear case of the numbers supporting vaccination on a purely statistical basis.

For those healthy and 17 years or younger it's not even close. You are far more likely to be harmed by the vaccine than you are to be harmed in any way by COVID.

15 hours ago, Bijan said:

Cases here went from 4000 a day down to 300 back to 600 now as vaccination rate went from 10% to 90% and measures were generally eased though at first measures were tightened. I think data elsewhere also shows number of people testing positive went down as vaccination went up.

Unless it reduces symptoms to the point that there are none then it must be reducing infections.

There is evidence suggesting transmission is reduced with the vaccine but not prevented. And the current data (which is limited) only suggests a link to lower transmission rates. Also, transmission may be declining due to natural immunity. We have no idea how many people have actually had COVID. In the US, for example, I've seen multiple credible estimates that 50-60% of all people in the US have had COVID by now. That would be 170-200 million people, most of whom aren't the 50 million young children who rarely test positive. That's close to 75% of all adults, a number that most agree is the target for herd immunity. That's obviously going to reduce transmission. The bottom line is that no one knows if the reduction in cases is correlation or causation with the vaccine. 

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"Now, more than ever, you have a responsibility to speak recklessly" - Dave Chappelle to fellow comedians. He's on the money again in my book. And that's a disgrace they sacked this dude over that car

I am not vaxxed, but not an anti-vaxxer. I believe in personal choice and responsibility. But I am anti-mandate. The whole mantra of "No jab-no more job" is a crock of shiatsu. My daughter who is 15 h

What's disturbing to me is the portrayal of people who object to mandates as being "anti-vax". Honestly, the number of people who are truly "anti-vax" is pretty insignificant. I don't know of any. I g

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

There is evidence suggesting transmission is reduced with the vaccine but not prevented. And the current data (which is limited) only suggests a link to lower transmission rates

The initial studies show/prove it reduces infections in the vaccinated. Non infected people will not (can not) transmit as with all viruses I know of.

If the question is does the vaccine reduce the transmission by the vaccinated people who do get COVID I think that is something we can ignore entirely if the data is unclear.

 

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

That means a healthy person under 30 is about as likely to get a vaccine complication as they are to die of COVID. 

Not to minimize vaccine complications but I think most people would rather get those than die.

That is if it's 1/500,000 to die of COVID unvaccinated and 0 complications vs 1/10,000,000 to die vaccinated and 1/500,000 complications I think you're still on the balance better off to get vaccinated.

 

2 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

The bottom line is that no one knows if the reduction in cases is correlation or causation with the vaccine. 

Cases were going up in several different places at different times and suddenly started going down as vaccinations went up again at different times. I think we can make some assumptions.

Edit: this is with a vaccine that is proven to reduce the odds of infection. I think it is safe to assume that a vaccine that makes you less likely to catch COVID did indeed reduce the number of people getting COVID.

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10 hours ago, clint said:

Science can admit?   Science is striving?   That doesn't even make sense.  Science is a method of inquiry or a body of knowledge, it has no intention or conscience. 

People using the scientific method may have intentions of coming to  the understanding,  or discovering the cause of something,  or they may have intentions of manipulating the process to fit a specific narrative or desired outcome.

"Science" doesn't strive for anything, people do.   It should always be open to scrutiny and questioning but in this case we are just being told to "trust the science".  Sounds a lot like faith to me.

You're really arguing the language here, you seen to have clearly understood.

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Gentlemen, you have raised an age-old question here, which cannot be answered unequivocally.
Each time he raises a different topic, but the meaning is the same: «a personality or a state» - which is more important.
A good point well made. However in politics, religion and indeed occasionally science it is becoming more the case that a powerful personality defines the state. Throughout history this has been the case, but more so than ever nowadays. This blurs the definition of whether an individual's opinion is their own or merely the unthinking parroting of another's. The reassuring lie is easier to believe than the inconvenient truth. And those that control the media and society know this. I hate politicians for they are the main players in this game, dragging religion, science and therefore the people into their orbit.

Sent by spooky action at a distance


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6 hours ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  I wanted to just pick up on this on a casual basis, I'm not going to trawl through the papers to give the specific data but it's there if it's of interest to you.

  The issue revolves around viral load, the vaccines reduce the vital load in a vaccinated person. The body is primed assist the icon so when it comes the virus doesn't replicate as much, hence a reduced viral load. The result of this is milder symptoms; essentially removing the risk of severe disease and death in all but the most frail.

  With the reduced viral load from the vaccines is the reduced amount of viral particles that an infected person has at their disposal to spread. That's where the reduction of transmission comes from. Off the top of my head the reduction rate I think it's something around 40%, combining that with ventilation, social distancing and masks are all part of the exit strategy for this

Great explanation. :ok:

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16 hours ago, HopeUgood said:

My gf is not vaccinated, I am.  There hasn't been a single argument on the matter.  We likely just don't agree with each others risk assessment of the unknown.  

I fully understand anyones hesitancy, I just made the best choice I could with the information I had.  

I am not a fan of the mandates being imposed.  


As for the cartoonist, I believe in the freedom of speech and expression to be vitally important.  
Im sure the woke police will be making their arrest soon...... 

 

Ya, I speak to the engineers.... the architects are a waste of time.  Of course Im reasonable about it, I only do this for first time entry if I am satisfied with their explanation of their work....🤪

I'm vaccinated. My wife is not. 

I find it very difficult to have a discussion on anything related. We can't do virtually anything anymore, as vax status is required to go anywhere indoors, to any event, virtually to do anything. 

If you aren't having an issue, I suspect where you live it isn't as restrictive to be non vaxxed?

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15 hours ago, Bijan said:

Not to minimize vaccine complications but I think most people would rather get those than die.

That is if it's 1/500,000 to die of COVID unvaccinated and 0 complications vs 1/10,000,000 to die vaccinated and 1/500,000 complications I think you're still on the balance better off to get vaccinated.

Actually, based on the numbers, a person under 30 is 4 times as likely to experience a serious complication (from which one could die) than to die from COVID. A case could be made either way and neither choice could be condemned. 

 

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https://www.nhl.com/news/ottawa-next-three-games-postponed-due-to-coronavirus/c-327977610

99% of NHL players are vaccinated, so it's likely that everyone on the Ottawa Senators was vaccinated.  Now they are postponing games because of an outbreak.

Multiple NFL coaches have missed game as a result of contracting covid.  100% of NFL coaches are vaccinated.

Let's not even talk about the ridiculous amounts of healthy young people and athletes suddenly suffering from myocarditis.  Serious and life threatening heart inflammation that is a result of the vaccine.

Soon you will need a third shot to be considered "fully vaccinated" because, it turns out, the vaccine is not anywhere close to as effective as we were initially misled to believe.

Yeah, the vaccine totally works you guys!!!  Perfectly safe and effective!  :clown2::clown2::clown2:

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13 minutes ago, Grateful13 said:

Yeah, the vaccine totally works you guys!!!  Perfectly safe and effective!  :clown2::clown2::clown2:

55/56 games postponed last season. This is the first one this season. We'll see if we hit 55.

Edit:

Also:

"Batherson, who leads the Senators with 16 points and seven goals, initially tested positive Nov. 13, but two subsequent negative tests allowed him to be in the lineup and he scored four points (two goals, two assists) in a 6-3 win against the Pittsburgh Penguins. He was placed back in protocol the next day."

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Let's not even talk about the ridiculous amounts of healthy young people and athletes suddenly suffering from myocarditis.  Serious and life threatening heart inflammation that is a result of the vaccine.


Reported cases of myocarditis in the US were 1226 out of 177 Million Vaccinated, majority were mild symptoms which fully recovered and no one died. I wouldn't personally say that was ridiculous amounts and the symptoms weren't reported to be serious or life threatening.






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Literally billions of people have been vaccinated. They could not hide issues if they wanted to. The estimates are 41% of the world's population.

On the other hand there is a crude mortality rate of 0.28% that's with the vaccinations and precautions mind.

Double vaxxed and will take the booster.

If 0.28% in a short time. Might feel like Thanos clicked his fingers...

 

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43 minutes ago, potpest said:


 

 


Reported cases of myocarditis in the US were 1226 out of 177 Million Vaccinated, majority were mild symptoms which fully recovered and no one died. I wouldn't personally say that was ridiculous amounts and the symptoms weren't reported to be serious or life threatening.





 

 

https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/16738?autologincheck=redirected

 

That was the number as of June 23, 2021.  The number is much higher now.  Nice try.

And downplaying it as mild is straight up lunacy.  There is nothing mild about a heart condition like that.  Will you also discount the "mild" cases of covid - which applies to 99% of covid cases who have "mild symptoms and fully recover"?  Why not?

Why are covid truthers so dishonest with their statistics?

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Re myocarditis:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/

"Now a study in the US has analysed how often myocarditis occurs following infection with the coronavirus. Researchers analysed the records of healthcare organisations that cover a fifth of the US population. They found that, during the first 12 months of the pandemic, males aged 12 to 17 were most likely to develop myocarditis within three months of catching covid-19, at a rate of about 450 cases per million infections.

This compares with 67 cases of myocarditis per million males of the same age following their second dose of a Pfizer/BioNTech or Moderna vaccine, according to figures from the US Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. Researchers added together cases after first and second doses to reach a total rate of 77 cases per million in this male age group triggered by vaccination, a sixth that seen after infection.

450 cases of myocarditis per million covid-19 cases in young males”

“If you’re focused on heart inflammation, the safer bet is to take the vaccine,” says Mendel Singer at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, who helped carry out the study."

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https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/16738?autologincheck=redirected
 
That was the number as of June 23, 2021.  The number is much higher now.  Nice try.
And downplaying it as mild is straight up lunacy.  There is nothing mild about a heart condition like that.  Will you also discount the "mild" cases of covid - which applies to 99% of covid cases who have "mild symptoms and fully recover"?  Why not?
Why are covid truthers so dishonest with their statistics?


Around 80% of covid cases are mild, which means rest and paracetamol at home, yes I will discount those, the other 20% of serious cases are the issue here.
Most Myocarditis cases cleared up in days with no lasting effects, it's not a dangerous heart condition, it's a rare mild side effect. The common cold can cause similar symptoms.
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People need to be careful with stats found on websites, yes even the cdc or who.  Whether it’s supporting vaccines or supporting the antivaxxers is no different.  Both camps are full of confirmation bias statistics. Pick a side and there’s a statistic to support you.  I’m exhausted by all of it where I stopped talking about it or to people who want to talk about it, on both sides of the issue. Fact is we don’t know for sure, it’s all educated guesses with stats and lessons looking in the rear view mirror.  Do what you feel is best for your family and buckle up for a long ride cause this is not going anywhere any time soon.  Chances are you’ll be fine, but sadly, not everyone will.

I’m vaccinated, my family is vaccinated, my wife and young son.  I chose that not based on any statistic, but information and the opinion from my brother who leads one of the largest health systems in the state, on what he’s seen in his hospitals as far as hospitalizations, deaths from Covid, and reactions to the vaccine.  For me it was a no brainer, but not everyone has access to a trusted source like me, so I blame no one for their stance if they choose not to vax.  I just wish everyone the best of luck, health, happiness, and I’ve moved on with my life to focus on what I can control instead of what I can’t.  Cheers fellas.

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3 hours ago, Grateful13 said:

https://www.nhl.com/news/ottawa-next-three-games-postponed-due-to-coronavirus/c-327977610

99% of NHL players are vaccinated, so it's likely that everyone on the Ottawa Senators was vaccinated.  Now they are postponing games because of an outbreak.

Multiple NFL coaches have missed game as a result of contracting covid.  100% of NFL coaches are vaccinated.

Let's not even talk about the ridiculous amounts of healthy young people and athletes suddenly suffering from myocarditis.  Serious and life threatening heart inflammation that is a result of the vaccine.

Soon you will need a third shot to be considered "fully vaccinated" because, it turns out, the vaccine is not anywhere close to as effective as we were initially misled to believe.

Yeah, the vaccine totally works you guys!!!  Perfectly safe and effective!  :clown2::clown2::clown2:

The Blue Jackets (team I followed) released an assistant coach and two players who refused to vax up. Easy to get 99% when you fire those who refuse….

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15 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I contracted Myocarditis as a 24 year old and it has had long lasting affects on my health. My heart is slightly enlarged to this day. 

I contracted mine as a result of a virus. 

 

I always knew you had a big heart, but I thought it was figurative...

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On 11/15/2021 at 7:41 AM, CaptainQuintero said:

  I wanted to just pick up on this on a casual basis, I'm not going to trawl through the papers to give the specific data but it's there if it's of interest to you.

  The issue revolves around viral load, the vaccines reduce the viral load in a vaccinated person. The body is primed for a fight against the virus, so when it is infected the virus doesn't get the chance to replicate as much; it's being fought right away, hence a reduced viral load. In someone unvaccinated there is a length of time for the body to gear up into fighting-mode, this time is used by the virus to multiply and spread throughout the body. The result of a lower viral load is milder symptoms; essentially removing the risk of severe disease and death in all but the most frail.

  With the reduced viral load from the vaccines comes the reduced amount of viral particles that an infected person has at their disposal to spread. That's where the reduction of transmission comes from. With less viral matter being spread from an infected person, anyone coming into contact with them is also getting infected with a smaller amount meaning their experience will be more mild (Someone infected with a higher initial viral load has more chance of their immune system being overloaded faster.) so it works both ways and in a vaccinated population the amount of viral matter will decrease as more and more time goes by and this effect snowballs

 Off the top of my head the reduction of viral load from being vaccinated I think is something around 40%, combining that with ventilation, social distancing and masks are all part of the exit strategy for this.

  Reduced viral load is the key to stop the virus overwhelming someone's body and killing them, there's just a happy coincidence that it also reduces spread as a by-product

This is a gross oversimplification bordering on misinformation.

https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people

https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/11/08/mccaughey-new-vax-sciences-shows-mandates-unwise/

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