How long to rest the Cohiba Panetela, "sick period"?


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I was curious how much age you should give the Cohiba Panetela before they've reached a nice blend?  I'm not looking for when they're amazing at 10+ years, I'm curious when the soonest would be that they're complex and balanced if you're not looking to save them a long time.  We all know they'll get better the longer you can ignore them in your humidor, but the Min Ron Nee book is always pushing for 3-5 years minimum for most Cohibas due to their raw tobacco and "sick period".  For such a nice cigar, is a short period of time like 6 months enough before you start enjoying them or do they really need a few years?  I'm tempted to smoke one every month or two and see the improvement, but I also don't want to burn through too many before they're ready.

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On 5/17/2022 at 9:24 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

early 2002 and things were beginning to change rapidly at that point. Different processing methods were being employed, most notably fermentations at higher temps.

Often heard, yet never have I seen any proof for statements of that kind being fact. Of course there have been permanent new strain developments (the switching from original Corojo and also that of Criollo to hybrid strains occurred way earlier) which may have come with the need for fine-tuning in the fermentation processes. But a general, basic „higher fermentation temps“? Never seen such being backed from an authoritative source.

On 5/17/2022 at 9:01 PM, Devo15 said:

I'm not looking for when they're amazing at 10+ years, I'm curious when the soonest would be that they're complex and balanced if you're not looking to save them a long time.

... you said it, there is a difference between being approachable early (sensu ‚shedding rough edges‘) and  maturing so as to gain complexity and depth. The former may have changed in recent years. For a change in the latter I see no indication so far judging from my own stash, with the 2002 vintage now approaching two decades. But that being said it’s difficult to make such comparisons over decades, as not only tobacco, vintages, soil, climate, cultivation and processing may change. Also you, as the smoker, do change over time.

The CP is a simple cigar. I can enjoy a Cohiba Panetela as soon as within a few months of boxing, provided moisture is being taken care of. (I feel the Exquisitos is more rewarding for aging, when looking at those slender Cohiba formats).

More generally speaking, there are no shortcuts for full enjoyment. Still, that comes with a strong component of personal preference.

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24 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Often heard, yet never have I seen any proof for statements of that kind being fact. Of course there have been permanent new strain developments (the switching from original Corojo and also that of Criollo to hybrid strains occurred way earlier) which may have come with the need for fine-tuning in the fermentation processes. But a general, basic „higher fermentation temps“? Never seen such being backed from an authoritative source.

Correct--I should have said that it is strongly rumored to have occurred. I have seen and read some first-hand accounts over the years but obviously nothing authoritative or official from Tabacuba.

I'm also aware that some older writings and publications indicate fermentation temperature ranges in the 100F-130F range while recently I have seen the high-end limit increase to 140F. IIRC there is an upper limit where critical enzymes begin to break down at 149F, so that is the ultimate upper limit. 

The bottom line is that Cuba using higher fermentation temperatures is a theory which fits nicely with the almost universal opinion that post-2001 cigars are much more approachable young. 

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... ahhh someone who can afford Cohibas. Can I borrow some money...?

(read with levity)

Welcome to the forum mate.

I have one box of these from about 20 years ago. I have had them for that long and have yet found a reason to smoke them. -LOL Maybe smoke one today and let you know that they are okay to smoke.!!!!

Cheers! -Piggy

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On 5/19/2022 at 1:24 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

Correct--I should have said that it is strongly rumored to have occurred. I have seen and read some first-hand accounts over the years but obviously nothing authoritative or official from Tabacuba.

Well, my feeling is this is rather due to someone having picked up some out-of-context snippet of info. Never seen anything to back it up - quite the contrary actually.

On 5/19/2022 at 1:24 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

while recently I have seen the high-end limit increase to 140F.

You would hardly do this to your compost, let alone black Cuban tobacco 😅

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4 hours ago, Fugu said:

You would hardly do this to your compost, let alone black Cuban tobacco

Yes, it seems high and in most sources I've read one has to be aware of the darkening of the leaves above 130F. 

Unless you have multiple sources at Tabacuba I doubt it will ever be confirmed. But clearly there has been a reduction in tannic, bitter, ammoniac and harsh flavors in young CCs since 2000 which drives the hypothesis. 

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When are the cigars ready to smoke? For me it's about moisture, not time.  Fresh Cuban cigars are often too moist to enjoy right away. Dry box a few. When the bands are just a tad loose the cigar is ready to smoke.

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On 5/25/2022 at 7:06 AM, NSXCIGAR said:

Yes, it seems high and in most sources I've read one has to be aware of the darkening of the leaves above 130F. 

Unless you have multiple sources at Tabacuba I doubt it will ever be confirmed. But clearly there has been a reduction in tannic, bitter, ammoniac and harsh flavors in young CCs since 2000 which drives the hypothesis. 

Sure, but there’s a multitude of factors in the whole production process that could potentially be causing that. Temp might just be the most prominent one springing to mind, but it is also the most delicate one to alter.

Didn’t want to derail too much off-topic here, but let’s expand. I think this notion often goes along with the simplified idea that higher fermentation temperatures would automatically lead to milder, more approachable or perhaps also „flatter“ tobacco on the negative. This isn’t the case. At least not in such a direct, monocausal and linear relationship. There’s much more to it than that. Microbial and enzymatic processes during fermentation have a working optimum (range) in response to specific conditions, as you know. Temperature and moisture regime (nutrients, pH etc.) are having a direct effect on the composition of the prevailing microorganismic community in a fermenting pile, and as such on the reactions being catalysed resp. the substrates being metabolized. You remain too low, and you are in trouble. Get too high, you are in trouble, too.

Higher temps (read too high - and that is far lower than those 140 °F you mentioned) in tobacco fermentation can likewise lead to certain processes to work slower or even to die off, and the breakdown of undesired components will be imperfect (degradation of nitrogenic compounds, reduction of nicotine, raising pH. etc.), since you are operating outside the optimum (temperature or else) working range of those complex “entities” metabolising these. Likewise, such may generate undesired chemical compounds, up to causing a complete structural damage and loss of the leaf, which has to be avoided of course. A “harsh” young cigar can as much be the result of too low a fermentation temperature as it can be the product of too high a temperature.

Therefore, I think this whole “new processing” idea came about by someone who snapped up some isolated bit of information and thought he’d then belong to the initiated. If you ask me, in actual fact nothing else than reflecting limited adjustments done in response to different tobacco qualities and also simply due to progress in ongoing current research. If you look at the available published Cuban original literature, post-2000 studies are primarily directed towards controlling microbial composition and activities during fermentation, experiments done with automated systems (wrapper) and for finding the optimal duration of processes. Even experiments with controlled microbial inoculation are being undertaken. Also, on the cultivation/agricultural end (‘pre-industrial’ as the Cubans call it) a lot of different things have and are being tried and done apart from strains evolution alone (among them e.g. technical determination of optimal leaf ripeness - a thing that has a tremendous effect on raw tobacco quality). And so on.

What’s a constant - still - running like a golden thread through all published info, whether you look at pre- or post 2000(ish) publications, that’s the upper limits given for fermentation temperatures. With the first fermentation step ideally not exceeding 40°C and the post-despalillo one being usually kept at between 35 (or even lower) and mid to high 40s °C (95-116°F), with primings below Ligero usually and preferably not exceeding 41 °C (106 °F). People often have the idea of a compost pile with fermenting tobacco - far from it!

So, I agree with you, and many other smokers, in that today, in the main, Cubans tend to be approachable sooner (there’s been notable exceptions). But whether a fundamental change in fermentation temperature regimes is being responsible for that remains to be proven. If you ask me I very much doubt it. And I’ll remain a “non-believer” until someone will convince me otherwise.

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11 hours ago, Fugu said:

So, I agree with you, and many other smokers, in that today, in the main, Cubans tend to be approachable sooner (there’s been notable exceptions). But whether a fundamental change in fermentation temperature regimes is being responsible for that remains to be proven. If you ask me I very much doubt it. And I’ll remain a “non-believer” until someone will convince me otherwise.

Yes, I would sum up by simply stating that the general consensus is that CCs have become more approachable young since 2000 and that it is rumored that certain processing changes were implemented, one of which being higher fermentation temps. Certainly, it could be lower temps or different moisture content or airflow or fermentation time or something we haven't thought of. I doubt it's the new strains since new strains had been implemented long before 2000 and late 90s cigars were still subject to some roughness when young.

And we know it's not happening at the fincas as the farmers would have confirmed the changes. Which begs the question, do farm rolls perform better young than before? That tobacco should be the same as it was 25 years ago. Tabacuba hasn't had a chance to touch it, or is it coming back to the farms after Tabacuba has processed it? I'm assuming farmers process some amount of leaf on the finca. 

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